Critical Strike Question Options

[WorkOver]

Is there an errata somewheres? The brawling adept has 2 levels in critical strike for 1 pp, but the power description doesn't list the fact that is can be purchased in levels.

I was hoping it could still be in levels, but I am okay if it is not, since you can apply it to toher stuff now.

Thanks guys.

[ElFenrir]

I do believe that it was one of those powers that was changed at the last minute, after the Archetypes were in stone. Essentially, it's as the power reads-you can take it one time per skill and get a +1 to the damage value. The archetypes were not changed to reflect that.

[Mäx]

Yeah someone decided that unarmed adepts shouldn't be a valid concept and the power was changed but the sample one wasn't updated.

[ElFenrir]

I'm going to have to disagree here. I have an Unarmed Adept that does 11P Damage between his Strength, Strength Increase powers, Knucks, and Critical Strike. And no, he's not a troll, he's an elf, so he gets more dice to roll for the skill thanks to Agility. And he's made 100% by the book rules with none of our Availability-nixing house rules in effect.

Unarmed Adepts advantage over Weapon are that Killing hands can cover Weapon Foci-so they don't need to spend nuyen and Karma to bond one to hit stuff with Immunity to Normal Weapons, and they don't need to actually have an active Focus to do it(yes, they can activate or not activate the power.) They take a .5 PP power and get their Physical damage/ability to hit stuff with immunities and also Astral stuff.

Weapon Adepts have the advantage in sheer damage. As well they should, IMO-since before, it was *weapon adepts* that became obsolete, since Unarmed Adepts could out-damage them in every conceivable way(especially when Martial Arts hit, where it was easier to get the +3 DV with unarmed than it was with a weapon on TOP of that.) However, to really make total use, they need a Bonded Weapon Focus. Now a low-level one isn't that bad to get at least. (Let me add I am not necessarily biased toward weapon adepts, either-I always have, and probably always will, prefer unarmed.)

(THAT being said, I do hope Penetrating Strike makes an appearance again. I kinda think that should have been in the base book. Limit it to 3 levels even, and I think that could have helped out a *little* more.)

[phlapjack77]

(THAT being said, I do hope Penetrating Strike makes an appearance again. I kinda think that should have been in the base book. Limit it to 3 levels even, and I think that could have helped out a *little* more.)

<chanting> make distance strike stack with elemental strike...make distance strike stack with elemental strike...

[WorkOver]

I can live without in my games, so I really do not mind, but why remove it?

Sure, weapons where s/2, but they also got a =1-+4 on top of that. I understand you could get bone lacing and density on top of unamred, but that hurts the magic.

11p unarmed is not very good in shadowrun. The armor is all better now, and that will get laughed off, a lot.

Swords could also add the weapon focus on top of that. This nerf makes makes weapon adpets, far and away the better choice in this edition, expecially since you can get everything the previous poster posted, on top of the weapon, plus the weapon focus bonuses, plus the reach bonus.

[RHat]

There's no reason, in SR5, that you can't just use weapon focus Knucks and have that stack with Critical Strike.

[ElFenrir]

11P unarmed isn't good? Let's see here. Knowing full well that every opposition is NOT equal to a fully built character...

Decent Security Guard: Reaction 4, Intuition 3. 7 dice to try to actually avoid the attack. Average successes: 2(he could go on a block for 3 more dice, giving him an extra success on average, but he'll lose Initiative, allowing my dude with reflexes to go again later on.) I decided to actually roll this out on some dice, and he actually only got 1 hit, so oops.

My dude: 15 dice to attack. Average Successes: 5. (For fun, I rolled. I got 6.)

So 5--2=3 net successes. It's going to connect. Since the base damage is now up to 14, it's above his Armor Jacket(12), meaning that the damage will be Physical. He then gets to throw 16 dice(average successes: 5, body of 4 and Armor Jacket. For fun rolling: I threw 5.). Assuming average successes, he manages to bring the damage code down to 9, marking off 9 boxes and being one box til death. The dude is literally standing there barely with his ribcage shattered and is probably spewing up blood. If he had gotten even 1 less success or my character 1 more, he'd have had his head caved in. Now if he had gotten 'lucky', he might have only taken 7 boxes of Stun damage, which would still put him at a severe disadvantage. (In the rolled attempt, he was killed in a single hit.)

...Unless a character is going against fully built characters 24/7, I am REALLY failing to see how 11P is 'not good.' I mean I'm speaking from the PoV of a table who plays a little more on the cinematic end and we even think that's good, so it's baffling me how something with a damage code of 11 is considered bad. Are Ares Predators considered bad because their Damage Code is only 8P? They only get -1 AP on that. (APDS will take it to -5 total, but the base code is already 3 lower than 11, so without APDS, the average gunshot is actually Stun most likely.) Is anything below a 14+ Damage Code bad now? Honestly I think I got lost somewhere here.(Remember, filling the Stun Meter is JUST as useful, if you need 'em dead you can kill them when they're out.)

[Mäx]

I'm going to have to disagree here. I have an Unarmed Adept that does 11P Damage between his Strength, Strength Increase powers, Knucks, and Critical Strike. And no, he's not a troll, he's an elf, so he gets more dice to roll for the skill thanks to Agility. And he's made 100% by the book rules with none of our Availability-nixing house rules in effect.

That is pretty damm bad damage, my SR4 adept build has higher damage then that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)
Gun damage went up, defences went up, but unarmed adepts got their damage nerfed.

[ElFenrir]

Well, in SR4 I had an adept that hit for much more, yes. It was easier to stack. Which is why it was changed. It got too easy to oneshot everything. SR4 isn't SR5. Damage codes are different. Ares Predators only did 5P in 4. Now they're 8P. 11P is lower compared to SR4. Compare it to SR5, not SR4, since damage codes are different.

Maybe people aren't supposed to one-shot every single enemy they come across? 11P is enough to oneshot a lot of security guards and gangers. Do you NEED to be able to oneshot Elites as well?

(Note: I am not actually upset or anything about this, I am just...confused. Since when did it become necessary to one-shot *everything?* )

[Mäx]

Well, in SR4 I had an adept that hit for much more, yes. It was easier to stack. Which is why it was changed. It got too easy to oneshot everything. SR4 isn't SR5. Damage codes are different. Ares Predators only did 5P in 4. Now they're 8P. 11P is lower compared to SR4. Compare it to SR5, not SR4, since damage codes are different.

Combaring to SR5 doesn't change the fact that guns got big boost and unarmed adept got nerfed hard core as a concept.
Really being an adept is pretty much useless for unarmed combat, all you can get is +1 damage, ware can give you +3.

[ElFenrir]

Oh, I won't argue that it got nerfed....but IMO, it was a necessary one. It was FAR too easy to stack the damage high with them. I mean there was no challenge to it, and honestly, in SR4 it was the *other* way around-it became un-necessary to ever play a *weapon* adept. I mean, as someone who played MMOs, I understand the idea of 'Oh, go ahead and nerf Warlocks, but I play a mage, so don't nerf them.'

IMO, bringing back Penetrating Strike will go a long way; 3 levels of that will essentially equal the AP of a few weapons, which will cut Armor down more. Weapon Adepts will still do more base damage(again, as well they should), but Unarmed will have a little more oomph at that point.

That +3 won't help against spirits and other things with immunity to normal weapons, either. (Also, only +2 at chargen by RAW.) Also, cyber can only get +1 to the die pool. Adepts can get +3, which is another success on average, with Improved Ability. Also, Adepts get cheaper Reflexes.

Oh well, I suppose it's different opinions-I tend to think being able to oneshot anything up to a good security guard is pretty damn good, others might not.

[WorkOver]

11P is not good dude. Sorry. I guess if you are fighting security guards, then you are fine. I do not throw an endless stream of security guards after my runners.

It's funny, the S/2 runners in 4th hit harder than the s+ runners in 5th, when all armor went up, all guns went up, all melee went up, yet the premeire build for unarmed adpets went down.

This is perplexing.

[Mäx]

Oh, I won't argue that it got nerfed....but IMO, it was a necessary one. It was FAR too easy to stack the damage high with them. I mean there was no challenge to it, and honestly, in SR4 it was the *other* way around-it became un-necessary to ever play a *weapon* adept. I mean, as someone who played MMOs, I understand the idea of 'Oh, go ahead and nerf Warlocks, but I play a mage, so don't nerf them.'

Critical strike having levels like it should, would actually buff weapon adept just as much, but even if it didn't IMO unarmed adept is much more important to have as a valid concept then melee weapon adept.

That +3 won't help against spirits and other things with immunity to normal weapons, either. (Also, only +2 at chargen by RAW.)

Actually used Titanium bone lacing and muscle augmentation 3 give the ware puncher a whopping +6 damage in chargen.

[ElFenrir]

Have to houserule that in Chargen, though-Used ware is not available for chargen by RAW. If you houserule that, you could just houserule Critical Strike getting levels.

11P is not good dude. Sorry. I guess if you are fighting security guards, then you are fine. I do not throw an endless stream of security guards after my runners.

It's funny, the S/2 runners in 4th hit harder than the s+ runners in 5th, when all armor went up, all guns went up, all melee went up, yet the premeire build for unarmed adpets went down.

This is perplexing.

If 11P isn't good-then what ARE your runners facing constant streams of-Tir Ghosts? I'm looking at Professional Rating 4 things and I see this:

Dodge Pools of 8 base(average: 2.5 successes, round up to 3 if you want.) They can block for extra of course, if they sacrifice Initiative.
Lined Coats for 9 Armor.

I see Elite Corporate Security with base dodge pools that average 4 successes. Better, but this also asks the question: Do you believe that every Elite force should be able to be one-shot? If yes, then okay, I can understand why you'd think 11 damage is 'bad.' Yes, if you expect an unarmed person to be able to one-shot everything up to and including characters who are *better* than starting characters, then I could agree 11 damage is not good for that.

(Also, Professional Rating 6 Lieutenant unarmed damage is 8. With a weapon, 11.)

EDIT: IF someone came up to me and asked for a 'compromise', I'd say allow Critical Strike to stack, but at a maximum of +3 DV.

[Mäx]

Have to houserule that in Chargen, though-Used ware is not available for chargen by RAW.

Actually it is as per the gear section(the chargen section fails to even mention it existing, so i go with the list that does)

[ElFenrir]

Oh, the 'word of god' had said it was not(it's in an Errata thread discussion), so I guess until it gets said errata, you can run with that(and again, for your home table), but Missions stuff follows the RAW as far as I know.

(And again, nothing stopping someone from houseruling Critical Strike at their own table.)

[Mäx]

Oh, the 'word of god' had said it was not(it's in an Errata thread discussion), so I guess until it gets said errata, you can run with that(and again, for your home table), but Missions stuff follows the RAW as far as I know.

And Jasons answer on some random board isn't in any way RAW, it really doesn't even qualify as RAI.

[ElFenrir]

I suppose this entire discussion shows that no edition is immune to one thing.

The Cyber people arguing that Adepts are too strong(I've seen a *lot* of this.)

The Adept people arguing that Cyber is better.

Yep, still Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mäx]

The Adept people arguing that Cyber is better.

For unarmed combat cyber is better, cybered adept is best.
For anything else, cybers new ridiculous prices are quite a problem.

[ElFenrir]

SR4 had the other issue-'Bio Adept' was probably best for any sort of combat type of character, let alone an unarmed adept or pure cyber. Essentially, if you wanted to totally optimize a combat character, Bio-Adept was the way to go.

Weapons? Sure. Reflex Recorder, Improved Ability, then add Weapon Based martial arts for DV. Extra Attributes gave a bigger die pool for Agility as well as Improved Ability.

Unarmed? Definitely, Cyber Adept was the best.

Gunslinger? Same here, Improved Ability got more bonus dice than a Cyber gunbunny could get with Reflex Recorder, and they both got stat bonuses, which pushed the bioadept ahead.

Now, in SR4, plain Cyber vs. 'pure' Adept-Cyber, IMO, they were more even for unarmed. Adepts could get a bigger damage code(3 Martial Arts, 6 Critical Strike) unarmed. Their die pools ended up probably about the same, once you factored in the Cyber person getting better stats+Reflex Recorder, the Adept with Improved Ability. Cyber unarmed wasn't a slouch though-they could get +6 bonus damage instead of +9. So your Regular Adept might have Unarmed 6, + Spec, + Agility 5, + Improved Ability for 16. Your Cyber probably had Unarmed 6, + Spec, Agility 7, + Reflex Recorder. 16 dice.

Damage was probably-let's say Adept with Str 5, plus Level 6 Crit Strike, + 3 Martial Arts, did 12P. Cyber had the 5(7) Strength, +3 Bone Lacing, +3 MA, for 10P. A little less on the damage side, but at that point they probably had a bit better Reflexes(Level 2 vs. Level 1 on the adept, due to the cost of everything else.) All in all, *pretty* even, once you factored everything together. (Adept of course had the Killing Hands bonus for the stuff with immunities.) Now, the Adept could probably squeeze out a couple of Armor Piercing points(after getting Reflexes 1) to help a bit more.

Weapon-wise, the two were very close-equal die pools(again, factoring in the different bonuses of the two), the Cyber would instead do a *little' more weapon damage than the pure Adept. Essentially, it was the reverse of the Unarmed. In this case, since Critical Strike didn't work with this, but they'd have been able to probably squeeze up to Reflexes 2 with those points, equaling the initiative of the pure cyber.

But then, yeah, Bio-Adept came along regardless and knocked them both out of the water.

(I did, however, forget something. One can get Qi Foci, if you put in the money, which can add to stats with Improved Ability, without spending all the PP on it. So an Adept could, say, get +2 Strength(2 PP), and a Qi Focus Improved Strength to get another 2, for a 6(10). Now if the rules for Used ware end up errata-and given they were stated by the head developer, I don't doubt they are-suddenly the Unarmed Adept becomes potentially harder-hitting than the cyber, or even if the Used rules are in affect, more equal.)

I guess with all of my opinions, I don't judge 'Good' or 'Not Good' on the basis of 'Being able to oneshot any and every enemy, regardless of enemy level, not on a surprise.' As it stands, an unarmed adept can potentially oneshot anything up to and including Professional Rating 5 enemies, so I REALLY, really, have a hard time seeing that as bad in ANY way, shape, or form. I think the only thing that exists at the moment that can potentially one-shot a Pro Rating 6 is a Sniper, and they snipe you with 50 cal rounds on a surprise from a kilometer away with AP-8 monstrosities.

[Mäx]

(I did, however, forget something. One can get Qi Foci, if you put in the money, which can add to stats with Improved Ability, without spending all the PP on it. So an Adept could, say, get +2 Strength(2 PP), and a Qi Focus Improved Strength to get another 2, for a 6(10).

That would require a force 8 qi focus so no can do.
Really i would say best use for Qi foci is boosting improved initiative up one level, so you get level 2 for 1,5PP or level 3 for 2,5PP.

[Skynet]

That would require a force 8 qi focus so no can do.
Really i would say best use for Qi foci is boosting improved initiative up one level, so you get level 2 for 1,5PP or level 3 for 2,5PP.

Iirc it's 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5.
So boosting it with a Qi Focus actually costs more (in terms of PP).

[Mäx]

Iirc it's 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5.
So boosting it with a Qui Focus actually costs more (in terms of PP).

You pay 1,5 for the first level, after that its 1PP per level or rating 4 Qi focus(or both for level 3)

[Skynet]

Ah, ok forgot about the part of it only needing the difference in PP.