Why Katanas? Options

[Rystefn]

As much as I think the Katana is overrated I think people are taking it to far by acing like its just a sword. Its a incredibly well crafted sword. Could and were swords of ts quality made in Europe and other parts of the world? Sure, but 99% of the swords made weren't. Most swords are not made to that standard. Swords made by talented smiths for important people probably hit that level of craftsmanship, but the vast majority of swords not even close.

No. For the vast majority of history in the vast majority of the world, a sword represented a massive financial investment. Goons got spears, nobles got swords, and they were made by dedicated, highly skilled smiths. Junk swords are by and large a fairly modern invention. Katanas are not special in that regard.

[Raiden]

Just because its mass produced doesn't mean its junk, sure it won't be as good as a sword made for a certain guy.. but it is still usable, just subtract 1 accuracy from it. hahaha (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Being expensive does not mean they were made by highly skilled smiths. Just that a lot of people did not get their moneys worth. A lot of swords from history are still around and most of them are not Katana level caliber.

[Raiden]

^ this too

[Erik Baird]

Japan had poor samurai, just as Europe had poor knights. The swordsmiths in both places varied in their skill level and available materials. Not every blade was a masterpiece.

[SpellBinder]

Quantity of product makes a difference when iron is virtually a trash metal in one place, yet worth its weight in gold in another. In the later, you're going to treat the rare metal carefully and make sure that the finished product is of the highest quality possible.

[RHat]

Just because its mass produced doesn't mean its junk, sure it won't be as good as a sword made for a certain guy.. but it is still usable, just subtract 1 accuracy from it. hahaha (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

In reality, at least, there are massive quality differences between mass-produced katana (often referred to as "wall-hangers"), and ones made in the traditional method. Massive differences in cost, too.

[Erik Baird]

Yep, which was why the good blades in Japan (katana or otherwise) were folded a gajillion times to ensure there were no pockets of slag to weaken the blade, but evenly distrubuted throughout the length of the blade. A master could do this pretty well. The apprentice, not so much. But even masters had a significant failure rate, about 30%, IIRC.

Secrets of the Samurai Sword

[Raiden]

Still, lots of people exaggerate the process into weeks. Thats silly, even back then blades could be forged in about 3 days with careful care.

[Erik Baird]

If the program that I linked above is the one I'm thinking of, it took the master three days just to smelt the iron ore by the traditional method (with much in the way of sacred rites). I don't recall how long the actual forging took, but afterwards the blade was sent to other masters for honing, polishing, and hilting. It might've been two to three weeks total.

[Raiden]

well, yes, if you do all the rites and the like it becomes an extremely long process. I meant the actual time spent -forging- the blade. besides, all of the upper class soldiers had these weapons, I don't think they took weeks on all of them. of course, I newer smith may take longer. In the end we will never truly no for -sure-. I still believe a modern day smith could easily do it and it be almost as good if not as good as one. (well, this too is debatable as most things crafted in today's world are crap...)

[Erik Baird]

Well, modern-day smiths can get much better quality steel that doesn't require the extensive folding, but then it wouldn't be a traditional blade. The folding is what give the blade the beautiful patterns. Modern tool steel will make a harder, sharper blade.

[SpellBinder]

Forging not so long. Polishing the blade of the katana afterwards, that could take weeks.

[Slide]

yeah but you are compleatly disregarding Damascus steel, and the swords that were made by Europe durring the early crusades. I've seen one of these bend point to pomel and keep its original shape, and still have a signifigant edge.

Now to say that they are not the same caliber blah blah blah. Take a look at the cultural diffrences between swords from Europe and Japan. When the Europeans figured out that guns win, they in large abandoned sword craft. We are just now rediscovering how they actually made the damn things, meanwhile in japan they cherish their sword smiths so much that they aren't allowed to leave the country with out special permission. They also are only allowed to make X number of swords a year.

Now look at the time frame when Europe and Nippon first started interacting on a large scale. The medival longsword had given way to pistols, riffles and side arming swords of dubious quality. The legend of how amazing these swords are originate from this time fram because in the 1600s sword smithing was a lost art, not to mention japan's obsesion with the superiority of the warior class.

But wait, the other argument will be that the katana can hold a razor edge, and is harder steel. Well it is. The fact the Japan is a metal poor country allowed this. They had inferior armor compaired to the European chainmail and full harness plate. Yes yes, the japanese made an equivlent to full plate that was extrodinaraly rare, and mostly they would deal with laquared wooden or bamboo armor. So back to my point about it having a razor edge and was harder steel. Harder is more brittle. The battlefield enviroment allowed for more brittle sharper blades that would open human flesh more easily because they didn't have to worry about the armor. The European smiths when presented with the problem of sturdy armor elected for a less brittle, softer blade that was more flexible. (Uhg, i hate myself cause i make it sound like the European swords are a homogenious group) This blade allowed the delivery of high impact blows with less chance for damage against the blade. So there are a ton of reasons that the European swords are diffrent than Katanas. Stop putting them up on a pedistool as if they really were crafted by the divine hand.

[Slide]

Well, modern-day smiths can get much better quality steel that doesn't require the extensive folding, but then it wouldn't be a traditional blade. The folding is what give the blade the beautiful patterns. Modern tool steel will make a harder, sharper blade.

Harder, stronger, more brittle, less ductile, less tough.

Its metalurgy. Harder is not always better, and neither Katanas nor European swords are made of a homogenious peice of steel. Diffrent parts of the blade and tang have diffrent properties associated to hardnes, strength, brittleness, ductility, and toughness.

[Wakshaani]

For the record, there's a Samurai-themed thing I want to see if the guys upstairs will pay for, which includes stuff about Katanas in 2075 and talks about the Corporate Samurai Code among other things. If they pass on it, I'll probably drop some of that stuff in here. I hope you understand if I try to get paid for it first. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Raiden]

I never said a modern day smith would use only steel when making one. the "wall hangers" are yes, but they will still lop off an arm if you sharpen them.

[Erik Baird]

Harder, stronger, more brittle, less ductile, less tough.

Its metalurgy. Harder is not always better, and neither Katanas nor European swords are made of a homogenious peice of steel. Diffrent parts of the blade and tang have diffrent properties associated to hardnes, strength, brittleness, ductility, and toughness.

I , at least, am aware of that. I may have only a layman's knowledge of the topic, but I do understand what makes a blade desirable and why it works. A traditional sword would only have an edge of steel; the body would be more-or-less wrought iron. Harder is better for the edge- easier to keep sharp, while the body of the blade needs to be softer to retain flexibility so it doesn't shatter on impact. Proper quenching and tempering were critical steps. The methods of the European and Japanese masters had a lot in common once you get past the hype surrounding either.

[RHat]

I never said a modern day smith would use only steel when making one. the "wall hangers" are yes, but they will still lop off an arm if you sharpen them.

Only if they don't shatter first.

[Slide]

I , at least, am aware of that. I may have only a layman's knowledge of the topic, but I do understand what makes a blade desirable and why it works. A traditional sword would only have an edge of steel; the body would be more-or-less wrought iron. Harder is better for the edge- easier to keep sharp, while the body of the blade needs to be softer to retain flexibility so it doesn't shatter on impact. Proper quenching and tempering were critical steps. The methods of the European and Japanese masters had a lot in common once you get past the hype surrounding either.

Both Japan and the Europeans used a similar technique.

Katana Cross section

Ok, I was gonna also show the same thing on a long sword but google decided it hated me.

I'd also just like to say that I love swords of all types, have studied their making and sword play for a long long time. I just grow very tired of hearing the American impression that the Katana was such a superior blade.

[Slide]

Only if they don't shatter first.

Wallhangers have a bad habit of breaking at the Tang.

[Shortstraw]

Tangential but interesting.

[Wakshaani]

Wallhangers have a bad habit of breaking at the Tang.

Always fun to pick up a new sword, get a good grip on it, shake it, and hear the distinctive bell clang that says "This tang is tiny and it will laugh at you as it shatters".

$100 wall-hanging swords are easy to get, and costuming ones even easier, but it's darn hard, and *expensive*, to find anyone making anything remotely combat-worthy these days. Real shame that.

[Erik Baird]

Tangential but interesting.

Huh. Dunno why they're acting like that's some recent discovery; that stuff's been known for quite a while. Much of what we know about the ancient techniques is described in an 11th or 12th century book written by Theophilus.

[Lionhearted]

But it's darn hard, and *expensive*, to find anyone making anything remotely combat-worthy these days. Real shame that.

Imagine that, actually lethal weaponry hard to get a hold of that... I can't imagine why that is.
Availability R for a reason (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)