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> SR5 and the loss of signal range, Game design simply gone wrong?
Redjack
post Jul 24 2013, 02:09 PM
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The 100m arbitrary range for mutual signal range that was introduced in SR5 (as well as the loss of the term itself) is a mechanic that simply creates more loathing that it fixes. Add to that the fact that some devices (example smartgun) formerly had a signal rating of 0 (range 1m). Now those devices, formerly with *reasonable* security, are pretty much unsecure by design. Sure you could (in SR4) get to it once you compromised the owner's comlink (and I have to nasty effect as a GM), but as a device it wasn't even visible to anyone unless (1) you were in mutual signal range [1m] or (2) hacked your way into the owner's comlink. Now it is a becon on the matrix begging to be marked.

I guess my issue is, as I think about incorporating this mechanic into our campaign games or using it in Missions and it simply seems clunky, arbitrary, and simply put: a bad mechanic.
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Sendaz
post Jul 24 2013, 02:18 PM
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So you would reintroduce signal ranges then?

So would it look like this:

I have a commlink and a smartgun.

I assume the commlink would still be visible on the 100 m mark but the smartgun would be have a range of 0(1m) but still left it wifi on for the bonuses.

So if I link my smartgun through the commlink I gain the added defences of the commlink, but also take the risk that the commlink stands out?

Whereas if I keep the smartgun feeding solely to my smartgoggles or hardwired, I would be semi-secure in the sense the hacker would have to be much closer to affect me, but I would also be without the stronger defences of the commlink/deck/

Or were you suggesting it in another manner?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 24 2013, 02:22 PM
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"Sokath, His Eyes Uncovered" (Comprehension Dawns)
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*sigh*
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"Shaka, When the Walls Fell" (Task Utimately ending in Failure)
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Sendaz
post Jul 24 2013, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 24 2013, 09:22 AM) *
*sigh*

Wasn't that supposed to be a *shrug*? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

or did I hash it that badly?
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Redjack
post Jul 24 2013, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 08:18 AM) *
So you would reintroduce signal ranges then?
Yes

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 08:18 AM) *
but also take the risk that the commlink stands out?
Comlink already stands out. It would stand out no more, no less.

QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 08:18 AM) *
Whereas if I keep the smartgun feeding solely to my smartgoggles or hardwired
That was not possible in SR4. It had to go through the comlink for processing.
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Tanegar
post Jul 24 2013, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 24 2013, 09:22 AM) *
"Sokath, His Eyes Uncovered" (Comprehension Dawns)
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*sigh*
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"Shaka, When the Walls Fell" (Task Utimately ending in Failure)

Ten Internets to you, sir. That is one of my favorite TNG episodes.
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Sendaz
post Jul 24 2013, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 10:33 AM) *
That was not possible in SR4. It had to go through the comlink for processing.

Yes I know, I was asking if this is what you were wanting to introduce. *shrugs*

So you were just wanting the individual low range icons not visible at a distance unless they close the gap or hack the comm, which then reveals all the goodies to play with?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 24 2013, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 07:26 AM) *
Wasn't that supposed to be a *shrug*? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

or did I hash it that badly?


Poor Hashing on your part. That's okay, it happens. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
(Couple of keys stuck, so I had to alter it a bit)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 24 2013, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 24 2013, 07:36 AM) *
Ten Internets to you, sir. That is one of my favorite TNG episodes.


Definitely one of the Best...
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Shortstraw
post Jul 24 2013, 03:17 PM
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To my sci-fi folder!
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Jaid
post Jul 24 2013, 03:34 PM
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the SR5 matrix works such that if a device has a path to the matrix, you can reach that device without hacking anything in between. so it doesn't much matter if the smartgun has a 1 m range or not... if it's connected to your commlink, it's connected to the matrix.
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Vicar
post Jul 24 2013, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 08:09 AM) *
Sure you could (in SR4) get to it once you compromised the owner's comlink (and I have to nasty effect as a GM)


I guess I'm not seeing much difference between what you describe from SR4 and Slaving to your commlink (or even better, to your Decker's commlink) in SR5.
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Redjack
post Jul 24 2013, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 24 2013, 09:34 AM) *
the SR5 matrix works such that if a device has a path to the matrix, you can reach that device without hacking anything in between. so it doesn't much matter if the smartgun has a 1 m range or not... if it's connected to your commlink, it's connected to the matrix.
QUOTE (Vicar @ Jul 24 2013, 09:49 AM) *
I guess I'm not seeing much difference between what you describe from SR4 and Slaving to your commlink (or even better, to your Decker's commlink) in SR5.
Both of these have the same response.

The smartgun was not reachable in SR4 without going through the comlink. It was not on the matix, it was on the PAN associated with the comlink., In SR5 everything on a PAN is now on the matrix. Subtle difference that actually makes a mountain of difference.
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Jack VII
post Jul 24 2013, 04:25 PM
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Caveat: Don't have the books yet, but I've read the commentary on this issue on the boards.

I kind of wish there was clarification of the 100m handshake deal. To me, that sounds more like a Bluetooth type connection, which (while wireless) isn't necessarily the same thing as being networked/part of the Matrix. It's kind of funny, I am currently dealing with this issue at work right now with portable scanners/printers which can be connected via wire, BlueTooth, or through our WiFi Network.

The way I see it, it seems like the comlink would be connected to the Matrix, while smarlinks, cybereyes, etc. would be bluetooth slaved to the commlink. If someone who is not in range for a handshake wants to mess with peripheral equipment, they would have to hack the commlink first, then use its connection to the other devices to cause problems. But, if a decker is within that handshake/bluetooth range, I do think they should gain an advantage for being danger close to said equipment. If that means they get to bypass the commlink, I'd be down with that.

Hell, we need more people screaming "Geek the Decker!!!"
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Redjack
post Jul 24 2013, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (Vicar @ Jul 24 2013, 10:49 AM) *
I guess I'm not seeing much difference between what you describe from SR4 and Slaving to your commlink (or even better, to your Decker's commlink) in SR5.
Also, here is an example:

Both cases: Top end hacker sees mercenary. Mercenary has no cyberware and only has a comlink, trodes and pistol with smartgun.

SR4: Hacker scans scoring high enough to see hidden nodes. He only finds the comlink (he is not in mutual signal range so he cannot detect the smartgun).
SR5: Decker scans and detects two nodes. (The comlink and the smartgun).

QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jul 24 2013, 11:25 AM) *
I kind of wish there was clarification of the 100m handshake deal. To me, that sounds more like a Bluetooth type connection, which (while wireless) isn't necessarily the same thing as being networked/part of the Matrix. It's kind of funny, I am currently dealing with this issue at work right now with portable scanners/printers which can be connected via wire, BlueTooth, or through our WiFi Network.

The way I see it, it seems like the comlink would be connected to the Matrix, while smarlinks, cybereyes, etc. would be bluetooth slaved to the commlink. If someone who is not in range for a handshake wants to mess with peripheral equipment, they would have to hack the commlink first, then use its connection to the other devices to cause problems. But, if a decker is within that handshake/bluetooth range, I do think they should gain an advantage for being danger close to said equipment. If that means they get to bypass the commlink, I'd be down with that.
This.
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KCKitsune
post Jul 24 2013, 04:46 PM
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The SR5 mechanics for the Matrix were horribly written and break suspension of disbelief so badly that I will NOT go to SR5. Also the nerfing that cyberware took is so bad that SR5 is more Magicrun than Shadowrun. Why play a Samurai when being a Physad or better yet (by RAW) Mystic Adept. You get benefits without the limitations.

I'll stick with SR4, thanks.
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Sendaz
post Jul 24 2013, 04:48 PM
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So how close is your new handshake range to qualify to bypass the commlink?

You refer to signal 0 being 1m but in both SR4 and SR4A it lists Signal 0 as being 3m. A small difference but still the difference between being immediately in someones face or halfway across a room.
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Jack VII
post Jul 24 2013, 04:59 PM
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For my version, I'm fine with the 100m handshake. I think it would streamline everything by just saying a decker can directly hack any device that has some kind of wireless connection ("BT" or Matrix enabled) within 100m. Outside that range, they'd have to locate and hack into the commlink to get to the good stuff. It definitley puts realism on the side burner, but makes the decker a bit more useful in the in-person side of the game.
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Redjack
post Jul 24 2013, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 24 2013, 11:48 AM) *
So how close is your new handshake range to qualify to bypass the commlink?
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Jul 24 2013, 11:59 AM) *
For my version, I'm fine with the 100m handshake.
The problem here is that this is mutual signal range. In SR5, the smartgun is simply "on the matrix". Noise applies, but it can be attacked from anywhere, theoretically.
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Jack VII
post Jul 24 2013, 05:12 PM
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So basically, your problem isn't necessarily with a decker who is with the team hacking things within a reasonable range, but it's a decker 5000 miles away hacking some dude's smartgun system directly (even with noise). I agree with that, I don't like it.
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Redjack
post Jul 24 2013, 05:38 PM
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I also would prefer signal ranges return and the arbitrary 100m go away. I doesn't make any sort of sense because the range of the device is surely more than 100m (hell even crappy modern cell phones beat that).

And yea, I have now joined the club of "direct hacking of all combat devices" is a silly mechanic. In the right cases it makes sense, but there went the baby with the bath water...
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Epicedion
post Jul 24 2013, 06:43 PM
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Out of curiosity, how would a device have the power and bandwidth for a neural connection but somehow restrict its broadcasting range to 1 meter?
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Redjack
post Jul 24 2013, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 24 2013, 12:43 PM) *
Out of curiosity, how would a device have the power and bandwidth for a neural connection but somehow restrict its broadcasting range to 1 meter?
That question doesn't follow the topic at hand. A better question is: Why would a device connecting via a wireless connection to your comlink need to be pumping out so much power as to make a connection up to connect 100m?
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Jaid
post Jul 24 2013, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jul 24 2013, 11:46 AM) *
The SR5 mechanics for the Matrix were horribly written and break suspension of disbelief so badly that I will NOT go to SR5. Also the nerfing that cyberware took is so bad that SR5 is more Magicrun than Shadowrun. Why play a Samurai when being a Physad or better yet (by RAW) Mystic Adept. You get benefits without the limitations.

I'll stick with SR4, thanks.


in general, for SR5, augmented adept > pure street samurai > pure adept. this is essentially the same as in SR4, so you're really not getting better results.

the part where mystic adepts are ridiculously good is, on the other hand, definitely something new to SR5.

the adept will be slightly better in 1-2 things, the street sam will be almost as good in those same 1-2 things but can also be a nigh-unkillable brick wall plus has some added utility, and of course the augmented adept just grabs the most efficient options from both and makes them both look like chumps.
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Epicedion
post Jul 24 2013, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 24 2013, 01:58 PM) *
That question doesn't follow the topic at hand. A better question is: Why would a device connecting via a wireless connection to your comlink need to be pumping out so much power as to make a connection up to connect 100m?


100m is a passive automatic detection range, not the connection range. The connection range is hypothetically unlimited because everything piggybacks the Matrix.
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