 New security measure, wondering what you think |
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 Apr 29 2004, 04:11 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032  |
Yes, that would probably stop trid phantasm as it can only mimick something that the caster has seen before.
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Apr 29 2004, 05:08 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Seriously, if you've got money for random colors and a program to check the camera feeds against them, you've got the money for a lot of other, more effective methods, such as:
Tiny ultra-sound emitter in the hallway, and a receiver 20 meters into the hallway behind a small, opaque and well hidden panel which is invisible to ultrasound. Anything disturbs the flow from the emitter to the receiver, they've got a picture of the intruder and can turn on the alarms. Use 2 emitters, one on either side of the hallway, the cover the whole hallway -- this also gives you the distance to whoever is disturbing the sound waves and a better view of him/her/it. Silence will trigger the alarm, as will turning the emitters off. And that's cheap, low-tech stuff. Weak emitters and detectors are even cheaper than actual ultrasound. A supported metal floor with some air beneath it paired to a few vibration or tension detectors (cheap by the 2060s) will tell you whenever any significant weight is put on any part of the floor at any point, how much and where -- paired with a plastic covering on the metal floor, this method is undetectable by just about any means. Etc etc. |
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Apr 29 2004, 08:10 PM
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#28
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
im not sure invisibility would get you past a motion detector and im damn sure that trid fantasm cant hide people or objects (thats what you have invisibility for).
personlay i would make the ends of the system sensive to movement on its own, with the camera as a backup. that way they worry about the camera and set off the motion sensitive threads. i wonder if the good old ir beam still works against invisible people tho. like what some shops use as a door bell? |
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Apr 29 2004, 08:13 PM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
DOes anyone have any documentation on this? I've seen a character make a trid phantasm of their surroundings without them in it, effectively making themselves (and anyone in the radius) invisible. Was that legal? |
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Apr 29 2004, 08:16 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
Invisibility = M drain
Phantasm = D drain I have no trouble letting the D drain spell do the job of the M drain spell. |
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Apr 29 2004, 08:18 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
But can't security cameras and things like that see through invisibility? I really don't know, i'm not a magic expert.
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Apr 29 2004, 08:21 PM
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#32
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
depends on the type. if its mana based it only affects living observers. if its physical it can affect cameras, drone sensors (the part of them, that works by visual systems) and so on...
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Apr 29 2004, 08:27 PM
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#33
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
that trick kinda reminds me of a macgyver episode. someone makes a scale model of his room with a barrier lock. when you observ the model then it looks like the door is locked, but as you think your unlocking it then your realy locking it... i think createing a replical like that is pushing it but if it was only to cover the cameras then i may allow it. its a bit like photographing a room from the right angle and then covering the lense with the photo... |
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Apr 30 2004, 01:09 AM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
That's the province of the ultrasound emitter/detector, though. Only rating x 400 bucks. I think the bead curtain thing is cool. The color-change thing is a little hokey, yeah, but maybe just the thing to secure a potheads "green room". It'd look pretty cool, after all. |
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Apr 30 2004, 01:14 AM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
The Stealth spell would work just fine, however. It effectively makes the subject invisible to sound; it affects sound just like invisibility affects light. |
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Apr 30 2004, 01:45 AM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
True enough. I've never even considered that. That's really whacky, probably on of those items that they added to the game simply to make B&E easier, even if there's no way it could work IRL. And if we're sticking to the canon mechanics, there is no millimeter wave radar or tensions sensors either. Vibration sensors are really nerfed too. On the other hand, what would take to be capable of changing the color patterns on the plastic strips in a very quick, computer controlled random pattern? Photovoltaic paint, which I suppose is pretty much what would be required here, costs 5,000 :nuyen: for a vehicle, and it takes a Complex Action to change the color pattern on it. With a dedicated computer to change the pattern randomly, and feed that data to the CCSS, it could be kept changing too fast for a mages spell to keep up. The cost might be prohibitive, even if you consider a single set of plastic strips to be the equivalent of 1/5th a vehicle. Looking at Ultrasound Detector systems more closely now... I guess the only possible equivalent for the setup I mentioned above would be to get a simple Ultrasound Emitter/Detector, break it up into two parts in place them like I mentioned above -- which is pointless, because the device automatically sees everything in LoS. Hmm. Ultrasound goggles + camera + ultrasound emitter/detector like above. Since there's apparently no stand-alone device that is like a security camera except works on ultrasound, make the camera "wear" the goggles. A Silence spell would cause invisibility to the ultrasound goggles, but would automatically trigger the alarm if the Silence area passes through the ultrasound emitter. An ultrasound emitter/detector cannot work within Silence, and doesn't fool the ultrasound goggles on it's own. The above setup is insanely expensive according to SR3, though. 1,100 for USG, 400 for USE/D and 2,700 for a Cybercam. What book(s), if any, have better prices for security gear? [Edit]Darnit, Stealth does foil it completely regardless. I'm too tired to think of how to get past that. Levitate gets rid of any tension or vibration sensors. If radars existed, there'd be versions of Stealth or Improved Invisibility that would fool them. Single target illusions seemingly get you past any sensors.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 30 2004, 01:50 AM |
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Apr 30 2004, 02:05 AM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Or you could rig up some cheap electronics to regulate the pulsing of.. 30 strands of 99 cent christmas lights. They could be, say, 10 strands each of red, green and blue, so the image-recognition software need only match a majority of blue input, red input, green input, etc. instead of having to match up complicated patterns. That's the kind of thing I see someone jury-rigging at home with a rusty old soldering iron, second hand parts, and schematics and code from a cheap amateur electronics mag. Even more likely to be guarding the potheads smoke-room. |
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Apr 30 2004, 02:16 AM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Vibration sensors are rather useless, even for the strips, sez canon. No mention of cost in SRComp, but the description suggests that that stuff is really expensive, and simple to bluff with a simple Stealth skill test. Logically, it should be very, very easy to notice the kind of movement the strips get when someone moves through them, so you could give the sensors a bonus to their rating when used like that. A Silence spell would stop any vibration sensors, since they work with microphones.
So the current is still the easiest, at least if the intruders aren't expecting it. Running the current through a wire in the center of the strips with a particular resistance would make it even harder to fool by bypassing the current. A door is better on most counts. You could run the current through the middle of the door sideways, with any change in the current triggering the alarm. Superconducting strips might help, but those should be really expensive. A separate spell could be designed to analyze and fine manipulate weak electric currents. Any other ways to get past this? How about an emitter (laser pointer or ultrasound emitter) on the inside of a closed, swinging door, pointed at a detector (light sensitive patch or ultrasound detector) some distance away. An ultrasound emitter would have to be set to a very tight beam for this. Anything stopping the emitted beam (light or ultrasound) from getting to the detector would trigger the alarm. If the mage doesn't know of the setup before he opens the door, a trid phantasm won't duplicate the effects. Anyone think of a way to get past this? |
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Apr 30 2004, 02:21 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
And it might attract too much attention. Everybody would be wondering just what the hell is the purpose of it. No problem for the pothead, maybe a problem for a corp who wants to guard a facility. And corpers might be against it on principle, if nothing else. A really nice low-tech solution, though, if you aren't a stickler for canon. |
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Apr 30 2004, 02:26 AM
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#40
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Motion detectors and pheromone detectors are almost annoyingly effective in Shadowrun canon. At least the ones listed in State of the Art: 2063. Might wanna check that entire chapter out a bit for some better ideas.
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Apr 30 2004, 02:30 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Ain't got that book. Funny how they made motion detectors more effective in that book, when they're pretty darn sucky in SR3.
I guess I should really consider buying that one. |
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Apr 30 2004, 02:31 AM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
It's worth it for the flavor text and ideas it inspires alone. Has some interesting rules and gear, too.
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Apr 30 2004, 02:49 AM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Yeah, I don't think corps are going to trust a security system made of cheap christmas lights. I was thinking more about a private residence or gang hideout. |
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Apr 30 2004, 05:13 AM
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#44
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You guys are forgetting about pressure pads. They're not affected by invisibility in the slightest, and they can detect movement as well as any of the complicates systems you're describing.
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Apr 30 2004, 07:16 AM
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#45
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
There are already a bunch of ways to beat that. I can't think of any easy way past the mighty christmas lights, though.
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Apr 30 2004, 07:23 AM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
A simple physical visual illusion (maybe even limited so that only technological devices pick it up to lower the Drain; I've created a variant of Trid Phantasm like that before) could take care of it. Just throw down the exact layout and waltz your way through.
A better solution would be to just create a grid of (mono)wire connected to motion sensors that are sensitive enough to pick up someone breathing on one (and maybe even carrying a current). So much as get a pair of wire cutters close to one and it goes off. No way to get through it without setting it off, and the security controls to open or close the gate can just be on the other side. The only real way to get past that would be to use Magic Fingers or Use (Electronics) and Use (Electronics B/R) spells (or have an ally spirit who knows those skills) to hack the device on the other end. Or otherwise influencing/bribing a guard on the other end to open the portal for you. |
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Apr 30 2004, 07:34 AM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
As said in the thread, the purpose of the lights is to flicker a random pattern for the camera to pick up. In the case of christmas lights, it'll light the blue ones, then the green ones, then the red ones, then the green ones, then the red ones, then the blue ones, etc. The mage has to know what random color ought to be there every fraction of a second. When the camera sees blue and it's supposed to be red, the alarm is tripped. |
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Apr 30 2004, 07:43 AM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Nothing about the Phantasm spell says the character has to maintain a constant focus on every single little nuance of the illusion. Like other illusion spells, the spell has a limited amount of autonomy on its own. The spell should easily be able to mimick the existing lights without a problem, mimicking their flickering patterns and everything as they flicker in real life.
Or do you honestly think the magician has to sit there and focus on every aspect of the illusion while sustaining it? Something they can do without even being able to see the illusion? |
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Apr 30 2004, 07:48 AM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Ok, how's this sound:
You trid phantasm on your side of the lights to cover up the stuff you are doing, then you splice the lights so you get a copy of the random noise pattern. Then you have your freindly nieghthood decker/mage plug the pattern into his head and he tries to keep up with the pattern while covering the real lights with the spell. (roll will, int, reaction, something like that...) This can probably be beaten by having two 'layers' of lights several meters apart and have the camera watch them both. So you can beat the first layer of light, but beating the second layer at the same time would be a real bitch. It's still seems cheaper and harder to beat than a lot of the high tech gizmos. :rotfl: |
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Apr 30 2004, 07:49 AM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,616 Joined: 15-March 04 Member No.: 6,158 |
Only if you insist on taking it on directly.
As with any security measure, it only takes a Negotiation skill and a little cash to get past anything. |
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