Spend Edge to kill yourself, Or why it should be Force > Magic = Physical Drain Options

[HugeC]

So the new rule is if the number of hits on the spellcasting test exceed your Magic rating, the drain is Physical instead of Stun. It seems like this was done to encourage gambling; you can overcast and hope you don't get enough hits to make the drain physical. Unfortunately, it makes spending Edge to cast a spell likely to saddle you with physical drain. What do you think, working as intended?

[SpellBinder]

If you've got more than one point of Edge, you can always spend a point on the Drain Resistance test. Had a player get hit with a drain of 9P (SR4 rules here) and used his last point of Edge on a reroll that left him with 0P damage to take.

[phlapjack77]

So the new rule is if the number of hits on the spellcasting test exceed your Magic rating, the drain is Physical instead of Stun. It seems like this was done to encourage gambling; you can overcast and hope you don't get enough hits to make the drain physical. Unfortunately, it makes spending Edge to cast a spell likely to saddle you with physical drain. What do you think, working as intended?

I think the drain / overcasting / limit rules for spellcasting could use more explanation in the rulebook, to put it mildly. Your question is one such that could be explained better in the book. There was also as an idea someone else had in another thread, where you can cast a F12 lightning bolt but use reagents to set the limit at your magic, so the drain is only Stun but you are gonna do some hell-ish damage.

[Critias]

It's a game, and you don't spend Edge on accident. If your character is pouring everything they've got into Casting Spell X, well, should they be surprised if there's a downside, and channeling that kind of mojo burns them out?

No one's saying you have to spend Edge on spellcasting tests (and potentially work up lethal drain for yourself), and there's also no one saying you can't spend Edge on the drain check, while you're at it.

[Bigity]

It does seem odd to penalize someone for using a resource that's paid for with karma or a priority, and penalize successes from it.

[Epicedion]

It's more of a calculated risk than a penalty. On the flip-side, you can cast a Manabolt at Force 1 and spend Edge, suffering the minimum of 2 Drain but getting uncapped net hits as damage. At 2 Drain who cares if it's Physical?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

So the new rule is if the number of hits on the spellcasting test exceed your Magic rating, the drain is Physical instead of Stun. It seems like this was done to encourage gambling; you can overcast and hope you don't get enough hits to make the drain physical. Unfortunately, it makes spending Edge to cast a spell likely to saddle you with physical drain. What do you think, working as intended?

Risk vs. Reward.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Lurker37]

The problem is the caster has already paid a price - the point of edge - to get a higher roll not limited by force.

To turn around and say 'you now take extra drain, but you can spend a second point of edge to fix that', is, quite frankly, a breach of Wheaton's Law.

[phlapjack77]

This seems to be the common reply now whenever someone points out problems with the rules. "Don't like the rule? Well, it's a risk vs. reward thing".

[Umidori]

I was a fan of the ability to withhold hits from a spellcasting test for reduced drain in SR4.

Maybe bring that back in a modified form, possibly specific to Edge use?

~Umi

[Sendaz]

You body handles only so much power flowing through it before it starts to burn out the circuitry.

Used to be in the old days of if force exceeded magic it was automatically physical, period.

But then they tweaked it a bit, saying only if you scored more hits than magic does it go physical, in essence it keeps you from being punished for trying to go high, but rolling low. So if you opened the channel but failed to really grab big enough handfuls to overload yourself and only took normal stun drain.

Now you have control over your overflow by setting force, which acts as your safety limit normally.

But when you throw Edge into the equation it acts like an extra channel, you get extra dice to roll and it throws that safety in the form of the limit out the window.

Now you are not just throwing two groups of dice (Force and Spellcasting) but three, tapping into that mysterious potential that is edge on top of the normal mana pull. It's like taking your 110v toaster and rewiring it to feed off the washing machine's 220v line. You get the added juice but you risk overloading your system all the more with that added current. Some toasters may handle it, others tend to catch on fire.

And this is partly why they changed the wording for drain from just Force over Magic to Hits over magic as they realized with Edge you could cast force 1 but still roll more hits than magic depending on the various pools and that was not the intention of the power. Edge is for putting your all into it at a dramatic moment, not trying to rulelawyer out a killer fireball with minimal risk. *shrugs*™

[ElFenrir]

I'm of two minds of this rule.

On one hand, I feel yes-the mage paid already. The old rule of 'Force up to Magic Rating or it's Physical Drain, hits don't matter' had it's upsides. You could cast under and hope you get the hits to push it up, which in and of itself-was it's own risk/reward thing. Fail in getting hits and they get hit with a Mana Carrot. Now, on that same note, with Edge being more excessive than Karma Pool these days, the 'old days' were a bit easier to circumvent, making undercasting with Edge really, really strong. (However, even using Karma Pool in those days, overcasting was Physical Drain.)

On the other hand, nowadays you CAN cast at a Force higher than your Magic without Physical drain...so long as your hits get held back. So if your Magic is 6 and you cast at 8, so long as your hits get held at 6, you're golden, you just cast a force 8 spell at Stun drain. You can cast the damn thing at Force 12 for Stun drain, which probably, in the old days, would have outright killed the mage for some spells. I mean, in 2e, you weren't casting a Hellblast spell over Force 4 without rolling Karma on drain(or having a focus which gave you more drain dice) without getting knocked out. (For those who came later, that spell's Drain Code was Force/2+6D, which meant at Force 4, the mage had to resist 8 Deadly Stun drain, which means they had to roll a 8 or better on two dice not to get knocked out, on 4 dice to not be so messed up that they take big minuses, on 6 dice to be a little fuzzy, and on 8 dice to not have taken any Drain at all.)

So I see where 'Low Cast+Edge' could make spells pretty powerful with not too much drawback, but on the other hand, I wonder just how much mages should pay. On THAT same note, getting 6 hits on a spell test means you need, on average, 18 dice to roll, so that doesn't seem bad. What it really, simply seems to be doing is taking Edge into consideration.

[Rubic]

I'm of two minds of this rule.

On one hand, I feel yes-the mage paid already. The old rule of 'Force up to Magic Rating or it's Physical Drain, hits don't matter' had it's upsides. You could cast under and hope you get the hits to push it up, which in and of itself-was it's own risk/reward thing. Fail in getting hits and they get hit with a Mana Carrot. Now, on that same note, with Edge being more excessive than Karma Pool these days, the 'old days' were a bit easier to circumvent, making undercasting with Edge really, really strong. (However, even using Karma Pool in those days, overcasting was Physical Drain.)

On the other hand, nowadays you CAN cast at a Force higher than your Magic without Physical drain...so long as your hits get held back. So if your Magic is 6 and you cast at 8, so long as your hits get held at 6, you're golden, you just cast a force 8 spell at Stun drain. You can cast the damn thing at Force 12 for Stun drain, which probably, in the old days, would have outright killed the mage for some spells. I mean, in 2e, you weren't casting a Hellblast spell over Force 4 without rolling Karma on drain(or having a focus which gave you more drain dice) without getting knocked out. (For those who came later, that spell's Drain Code was Force/2+6D, which meant at Force 4, the mage had to resist 8 Deadly Stun drain, which means they had to roll a 8 or better on two dice not to get knocked out, on 4 dice to not be so messed up that they take big minuses, on 6 dice to be a little fuzzy, and on 8 dice to not have taken any Drain at all.)

So I see where 'Low Cast+Edge' could make spells pretty powerful with not too much drawback, but on the other hand, I wonder just how much mages should pay. On THAT same note, getting 6 hits on a spell test means you need, on average, 18 dice to roll, so that doesn't seem bad. What it really, simply seems to be doing is taking Edge into consideration.

I thin the crux of this topic is: why spend Edge on the test when you can just call out some high force number (up to 2x Magic) and see what you roll, if the resist is all going to be the same anyways? How much benefit IS it to spend Karma instead of choosing a high force rating? If it's ultimately about the same as casting at a high force, then using karma is pointless (except, perhaps, at low magic ratings, where you'll hit Magic x2 more reliably). This is what could use more thought and more definition in the rules. If the thought is "Just use high Force ratings," then you can save your Karma for something more critical, like filing your taxes.

[Aaron]

I think it makes overcasting more interesting. I like interesting games.

[ElFenrir]

I think I see what you mean-as it stands, I can't see a reason to Edge a spellcasting roll, unless you used Edge on the subsequent Drain roll.

Off the top of my head, the *only* situation where I could see it useful to use Edge for spellcasting would be on both the Casting and Drain rolls is if you're facing opposition with an enemy mage with a high Counterspelling skill(say you cast once and it ends up not so hot due to his Counterspelling.) Of course, a 'Hail Mary Manaball' could possibly work here as well.

Otherwise, I'd just take the higher Force cast-within the realms of being able to soak at least most of the Stun drain-and go ahead and use whatever capped hits there are(and yeah, reaching that Limit does take quite a few dice or a lucky roll if you have a 6+ Magic.)

I could see it being more useful for Initiated mages, whom have Magics of 8+ or so. At that point your Limit is getting so high that you'd probably need to explode a couple of 6's just to reach it.

[HugeC]

...cast a F12 lightning bolt but use reagents to set the limit at your magic, so the drain is only Stun but you are gonna do some hell-ish damage.

Wow, that's a nifty trick! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

My main issue with the rule, aside from the somewhat bitter flavor of a better roll leading to a worse result for the roller, is that Summoning/Binding/Compiling/Regsitering do not use the same rule (they are still Force/Level > Magic/Resonance = Physical). As if this game weren't complex enough!

But on the plus side, in the eternal struggle of magic vs. chrome, mark this one down as ++samurai, since he never has to worry about his life getting interesting when he spends Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

This seems to be the common reply now whenever someone points out problems with the rules. "Don't like the rule? Well, it's a risk vs. reward thing".

My sympathy for Awakened Characters is fairly limited, if existent at all. Saying "Risk vs. Reward" seemed to be the most polite way of expressing how I felt about someone vocalizing that they were concerned that when their world altering magic scored a number of successes that will likely never be resisted by a mere mortal, that the consequence for having that power was physical drain.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Moirdryd]

There are a few reasons to spend Edge, especially since youre likely as a Spellcaster to have a low edge rating as it (SA pts either having hone on magic or your racial priority being low for those pts).
You throw a force 6 spell and only come up with 4hits when you Really Really want the full 6, so you spend edge to get those extra few hits, risking the Drain bump.

There's a CyberZombie monster of some form who's going faster than the Sam and Adept and hitting harder and the Decker went static a round ago. Time for that ManaBolt, you need it high but can't afford to fall over, so you set for minimum Force and then spend Edge to get rule of Six across the board and bump that casting DP.

You're and experienced Runner and youve got a nimble target (or just hard) that needs to go down. Direct Combat spells won't cut it but a full bore Lightning Bolt will. You're prepped for soaking up some serious drain so you let rip with a Force 12 bolt and spend the Edge to get those sixes working for you and add those extra 3-4 dice. You also spend Edge to help curb that drain backlash.

I'm sure there are more too.

Common? Not really, but that's what edge is for, when you need that bit Extra for those exceptional circumstances.

[Shemhazai]

Higher force makes the amount of drain larger. It's not all about whether it's stun or physical.

The stun vs physical aspect boils down to the difference between Magic rating and dice pool [Force] (acting as a limit). That means that anything that increases the dice pool, be it high skill, a focus or Edge, increases the risk of taking physical drain if force is higher than Magic. Edge can alternatively be used to remove the limit.

The amount boils down to the drain code, force and the size of your drain resistance dice pool. I'm often more concerned with that than which track the damage goes to.

Casting things at force 12 with high Magic compared to dice pool is an easy way to knock yourself out. Casting that with high skill, a focus, or Edge is a dumb way to die.

[DireRadiant]

I like it.

When the actual amount of mana pouring through my body exceeds my limits I take physical drain instead of stun.

A mage has got to know his limitations.

[Jaid]

here's my speculation on why it works like that:

a mage casts a force 1 increase reflexes into a force 1 focus (or using focused concentration), and spends edge. we'll ignore how many hits are gained, the essential point is that it's going to be far more than 1, and the only reason to *ever* cast that particular spell at higher force than 1 is to increase the limit.

if force is the determining factor for physical vs stun, that spell will never have a significant drawback. at least with hits being the deciding factor, there is a *chance* it will matter.

now, increase reflexes is a very specific (and i suspect most would agree, rather abusive) use of the "spend edge to ignore limits" option (particularly since now even non-initiates can press through a ward and are guaranteed 1 net hit, and therefore 1 sustained spell, to pass through with them). but it's not the only one. all the direct combat spells, several illusion spells, several detection spells, and several manipulation spells, are essentially entirely based on how many hits you get, and don't benefit (or benefit very little) from force apart from the limit.

it makes it so that the drain when you essentially make the risk of casting the spell insignificant can at least potentially add up, and at the very least it won't be gone an hour from now if you don't manage to reduce it to nothing.

(granted, they then went and proceeded to somewhat screw this up by making most spells have very generous drain calculations such that you can often cast at force 6 or higher without actually incurring more than force 2 drain anyways).

[SpellBinder]

Just wait till the magic splat book comes out, and spellcasters can custom make spells with select limitations to reduce the drain further. For SR4a I've got an infiltrator mystic with personalized versions of Improved Invisibility & Stealth that are both (F/2)-3 for drain. For SR5 it might be even crazier.

[HugeC]

@Jaid, Well, as others have pointed out, if the Force is low enough, it doesn't matter whether the drain is stun or physical, since it's all going to be resisted anyway. So it doesn't really deter the mischief you talked about.

That is another awfully evil trick, though! Focused Concentration 1 + 6 drams of reagents = win!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just wait till the magic splat book comes out, and spellcasters can custom make spells with select limitations to reduce the drain further. For SR4a I've got an infiltrator mystic with personalized versions of Improved Invisibility & Stealth that are both (F/2)-3 for drain. For SR5 it might be even crazier.

Nothing wrong with personalized spells. You are paying Karma for them, after all, and they should be useful. In SR5, those spells would likely be F-3. Not all that bad, in my opinion.

[Lurker37]

Casting things at force 12 with high Magic compared to dice pool is an easy way to knock yourself out. Casting that with high skill, a focus, or Edge is a dumb way to die.

But not as dumb as casting at force 6 (Magic 6) with edge before the roll, and getting 12 or more successes due to exploding dice. Rolls like that that should be awesome moments at the gaming table, not horrified silence as the player of the cast frantically rolls to resist drain and then quietly announces 'Guys, my character just died'.

Not good for the game, IMO.