[X] My Assistant

[X-Kalibur]

HP can still work in a game that is about fast and deadly combat. For a good example, check out (you're gonna have to dig some) Cyber Knight 2 for the SNES. A random encounter can wipe you out as quickly as you can wipe them out.

[Bigity]

I don't think the AMOUNT of HPs or how fast you run out is a problem.

The fact they exist in any game calling itself Shadowrun Returns, is a detriment. At least in some people's opinon, including mine.


The 'how it translates to other media' is a pretty weak argument. With a computer or gaming system of some kind, any mundane mechnical systems can be automated (except maybe die pools) so why NOT go with what Shadowrun uses?

[bannockburn]

The fact they exist in any game calling itself Shadowrun Returns, is a detriment. At least in some people's opinon, including mine.

Why?
Is there a particular problem?
You have 10HP in a regular SR3 game. EVERYONE in fact has 10HP. Call it CM all you want, it's HP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Finer granularity is a good thing for a computer game, or you will drop dead all the time after a single random number event (read: taking damage).

[X-Kalibur]

People are little bent out of shape over a minor mechanic aspect of it. You want to complain about the spirits, go for it, I hear what you're saying... although it's still pre-alpha. It's also NOT the first Shadowrun title to have HP. The Genesis version used a 10% meter (ahem, 10 HP) and the SNES version had Body that directly translated into HP at a x10 ratio.

[Lionhearted]

Uh-huh, Its getting caught up in semantics really.

[CanRay]

Uh-huh, Its getting caught up in semantics really.

It's "Tha IntraWebs! My way is right, and everything that isn't my way SUCKS!"

Or, so it feels to this Old Guard.

*Sighs* Eternal September.

[X-Kalibur]

Quick! Let's throw a huge monkey wrench in the work and request them to change it from HP to TP! Tenacity points! Then it can make no sense to anyone!

[_Pax._]

Yeah, I'm not feeling the hate for HP, myself.

The main concern I have is: if Healing magics / equipment / etc is based on a flat rate of HP recovery, then it would be harder to heal a Troll than an elf. That would not fit Shadowrun very well, at all.

However, there's an easy "fix" for that.

Let's first posit that each point of Body gives you 20hp.

Let's next posit that Healing spells come in L, M, S, and D "levels", with commensurate Drain impact.

If a Healing effect heals 5, 10, 15 or 20hp base (depending on the level it's cast at), and that base is multiplied by the target's body ... then guess what? Now, a Heal L will heal the same percentage of the target's maximum HP, regardless of body. B=3 Elf? 15hp out of 60. B=11 Troll? 55hp out of 220.

So, it's not super-complex to make healing scale across all HP potentials. Thus, I retain hope that my biggest concern about use of HP will be properly addressed.

[Stahlseele]

http://www.twitch.tv/gamespot/b/377701080
for 15$ Pre-Order and 20$ Retail it doesn't sound that bad.

[CanRay]

At only US$1.8m for the budget, I doubt they could have justified getting people to spend US$60 on it brand new. Especially as every sale they make is PROFIT! (And investment into DLC/Expansion Packs!!! Berlin, here we come, eventually!)

[Sengir]

Especially as every sale they make is PROFIT! (And investment into DLC/Expansion Packs!!! Berlin, here we come, eventually!)

Assuming Kickstarter was their only source of money. I obviously don't know if they did it, but after having just collected 1.8 million dollars without so much as a concept drawing, HBS surely would not have had any problems finding investors...

Also, HBS stated the net income from the Kickstarter as "just under $1.2 million". Rewards and fees are major factor for all KS projects.

[Bigity]

Uh-huh, Its getting caught up in semantics really.

If its just semantics, why the need for HP at all instead of what the game already uses?

[X-Kalibur]

If its just semantics, why the need for HP at all instead of what the game already uses?

Because they want to sell the game to people who don't know Shadowrun as well.

[phlapjack77]

Because they want to sell the game to people who don't know Shadowrun as well.

Unfortunately this wasn't how the game was billed. I think many people contributed to the kickstarter thinking they would get SR in computer form, not whatever it is that has abom spirits and summoning fetishes and hit points and spell cool-downs and critical hits and on and on.

[X-Kalibur]

This is why you gotta watch out with where you kickstart money. At least with Star Citizen and Wasteland 2 I knew the teams working on them had good track records.

[_Pax._]

If its just semantics, why the need for HP at all instead of what the game already uses?

Because the pencil-and-paper game uses hit points, too. It's just that, in the print / tabletop version, everyone (prior to SR4) always had exactly the same number of hitpoints: 10. And they weren't actively called hitpoints, they were "boxes on the condition monitor".

But as has already been quoted in this thread: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose // By any other name would smell as sweet."

[phlapjack77]

I sort of agree that actually the name "hit points" isn't so offensive. I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered seeing people get hit for like "-15 hit points" or something. So it seems that they not only used the name but also the idea of hit points, where as you get more powerful you gain more and more hit points.

Regardless, there was a lot more stuff in that video that was changed than hp or not.

[_Pax._]

I sort of agree that actually the name "hit points" isn't so offensive. I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered seeing people get hit for like "-15 hit points" or something. So it seems that they not only used the name but also the idea of hit points, where as you get more powerful you gain more and more hit points.

You've made a gigantic, unfounded leap from "there are hitpoints" and "you get more as you 'go up in level'".

Seriously. The SNES Shadowrun game gave you 10hp, per point of body. No levels involved. Wanted more hp? Had to raise your Body score.

Using HP, even with things doing 12 or 15 damage at once, does NOT mean the game is level-based. ::sigh::

[phlapjack77]

You've made a gigantic, unfounded leap from "there are hitpoints" and "you get more as you 'go up in level'".

Seriously. The SNES Shadowrun game gave you 10hp, per point of body. No levels involved. Wanted more hp? Had to raise your Body score.

Using HP, even with things doing 12 or 15 damage at once, does NOT mean the game is level-based. ::sigh::

I'm just trying to discuss this topic, not get into a bold text or sigh contest. Lighten up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You've made a gigantic, unfounded leap when you think I was talking about a level-based system. My quote is "where as you get more powerful you gain more and more hit points." So it still holds for your case, where you keep getting more and more HP when you raise your Body score (x10).

[Sengir]

Unfortunately this wasn't how the game was billed.

Which version of the Shadowrun rules are you going to use?

Let's start here--Shadowrun was never about the rules. It's about the game world. If you need proof, look at the 1st Edition rules. They were. . . lacking. But the world caught on and the rules improved. So we intend to be true to the world and take our rule cues from the 2nd and 3rd Editions. They best represent the 2050 era time frame.

[Lionhearted]

Honestly I don't give a crap if they don't follow the rules, not only is it not always ideal to do strict translation from tabletop to digital (Icewind dale 2 I'm looking at you) But more importantly: Personally I'm more interesting in getting people invested in the Shadowrun setting, in the concept itself d6's and condition monitors aren't what makes SR. What makes SR is Megacorps, Plotting dragons, Bug spirits, Rogue AI, Gangers, Magic , VR, Riggers, Chrome and Misery.
That's what important, that's what I want from this and that's what I hope so many new people will come to love.

[_Pax._]

I'm just trying to discuss this topic, not get into a bold text or sigh contest. Lighten up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Style over substance, for the lose.

You've made a gigantic, unfounded leap when you think I was talking about a level-based system. My quote is "where as you get more powerful you gain more and more hit points." So it still holds for your case, where you keep getting more and more HP when you raise your Body score (x10).

And in tabletop Shadowrun, you get "harder to kill" as your Body score rises, too.

Explain to me the fundamental difference between the two? Because I'm not seeing one.

A difference in execution, yes. But not in result.

[Tiralee]

10 hitpoints, or more commonly, 10 boxes in the condition monitor, is what combat's about.

Sure that wagemage might, just might, manage to roll high enough to resist that 14D aimed shot I had lined up...that's fine, that's what the second bullet is for.

But if having a body 10 troll = 100 boxes in the "Hp/Condition modifier", that's not Shadowrun 2/3rd. It's Magicrun 1.a, easier to swallow with half the difficulty.

And it's certainly not what I was expecting when I forked over the cred to fund that dream

Sorry if I've started and cranky-fest on this topic, people - but I wanted to play SR3, not a version of DnD CyberDaggerdale.

-Tir

[Bigity]

This is my concern too. Hit Points, Life Points, Wounds, whatever. Yea, I dislike that part.

What I REALLY dislike is the idea that a round from a heavy pistol isn't something you have to worry about in and of itself.

Or the possibility that along with hit points, you take the magnitude of getting shot and crank it down a notch or two so that it's more 'fun' for people who prefer less lethal combat.

What exactly they call it, yea, its probably irrelevant, but if combat works more like whack-a-life-bar of WoW or D&D, I'm not interested.

[_Pax._]

But if having a body 10 troll = 100 boxes in the "Hp/Condition modifier", that's not Shadowrun 2/3rd. It's Magicrun 1.a, easier to swallow with half the difficulty.

And another huge unfounded assumption comes rolling down the pike.

Who's to say that the equivalent of a "14D" attack, won't be dealing 100 or 150 damage?