Puppeteer Questions, plus some other complex form stuff Options

[rumanchu]

After reading through the rules, I have a couple of questions about complex forms in general (but Puppeteer specifically):

1) If I use Puppeteer to force a persona to take (for example) the Change Icon action, what exactly happens when that persona's next action comes around? Does it matter if the persona is in AR or VR?If the persona is (for example) the commlink for a troll taking aim at you with a Krime Cannon, do they stop what they are doing and change the icon, or does it just tie up their commlink for a bit?

2) If you use Puppeteer to force a device to use the Invite Mark action, does its owner know that it did so?

For that matter, does using a complex form against someone cause them to *know* that you used it against them, or do they just know that something happened to cause their device to take damage or their Sleaze to go down?

[Jaid]

1) when their next action comes around, their person does what you told it to. the person is free to do as they please, within the limitations of their situation; if they are in VR, they most likely cannot effectively take non-matrix actions, and their vehicle for performing matrix actions is busy, so they would be unable to act for that turn (although if you only used up part of the actions available, they can use what remains... so, for example, they might have a free action left if you made them spend a complex action).

2) for invite mark, i'd expect there to be a notification. i would also say you could use edit to prevent them from seeing that notification.

in general,if someone cannot see your icon in the matrix, they won't know what is causing things to happen. depending on what you did, they may also not notice that anything has changed at all; i'm not sure you'd actually get any notification that your attack or sleaze or data processing has decreased, and i'm pretty sure you could copy a file from their commlink without them knowing, for example. even if the results of a resonance or matrix action are noticeable, they won't be able to see your icon to know what did it to them unless they make a successful matrix perception check, or somehow manage to get a mark on you.

[quentra]

But remember, Puppeteer has fading equal to Level+4. So forcing a complex action like Invite Mark is 7 points of fading.

[rumanchu]

1) when their next action comes around, their person does what you told it to. the person is free to do as they please, within the limitations of their situation; if they are in VR, they most likely cannot effectively take non-matrix actions, and their vehicle for performing matrix actions is busy, so they would be unable to act for that turn (although if you only used up part of the actions available, they can use what remains... so, for example, they might have a free action left if you made them spend a complex action).

2) for invite mark, i'd expect there to be a notification. i would also say you could use edit to prevent them from seeing that notification.

in general,if someone cannot see your icon in the matrix, they won't know what is causing things to happen. depending on what you did, they may also not notice that anything has changed at all; i'm not sure you'd actually get any notification that your attack or sleaze or data processing has decreased, and i'm pretty sure you could copy a file from their commlink without them knowing, for example. even if the results of a resonance or matrix action are noticeable, they won't be able to see your icon to know what did it to them unless they make a successful matrix perception check, or somehow manage to get a mark on you.

That all makes sense.

But remember, Puppeteer has fading equal to Level+4. So forcing a complex action like Invite Mark is 7 points of fading.

Yeah, the absurd fading for Puppeteer was what made me start wondering about whether or not it was noticeable to the target. Sure,, the fading is high, but it might be worth it if you can get 3 marks on something with no-one (GOD included) being the wiser from the comfort of your own home. Maybe.

[Psikerlord]

puppeteer is tailormade for one off actions like triggering an enemy's wireless grenade grenade in a single phase without needing to get marks etc first.

[quentra]

puppeteer is tailormade for one off actions like triggering an enemy's wireless grenade grenade in a single phase without needing to get marks etc first.

And then you need to lie down for a few hours.

[Jaid]

But remember, Puppeteer has fading equal to Level+4. So forcing a complex action like Invite Mark is 7 points of fading.

if you can pull it off with only 7 points of fading, you've chosen a target that is likely not worth the bother. it's an *opposed* check; you need 3 *net* hits to get a complex action out of it.

[Psikerlord]

well exploding a wireless grenade could turn an entire battle, and for 1 free action u need only a single net hit. that is worth a few drain. i guess many actions might not be worth it, but thats ok, no power should always be useful.

[SpellBinder]

And the opposition is going to leave their grenades online and vulnerable to being bricked by an enemy decker, or supernaturally charismatic TM? Not having a grenade go off when you need it to is almost as bad as having it go off when you don't want it to.

[Jaid]

And the opposition is going to leave their grenades online and vulnerable to being bricked by an enemy decker, or supernaturally charismatic TM? Not having a grenade go off when you need it to is almost as bad as having it go off when you don't want it to.

not only that, but a regular hacker could get a mark on the enemy and then spoof the same command to the grenade with a single IP of preparation. all you need is something that will delay the fight for a moment, like having your face try to negotiate or something like that.

it's only any better for a technomancer if they didn't prepare for the fight in advance. and if nobody on their team has a grenade launcher that they can fire as a simple action (enable wireless free action, launch grenade simple action, detonate grenade free action; equivalent to one complex action plus one free action to get a grenade into position and make it explode. except that you get to decide what kind of grenade you want, and the location isn't limited to wherever the enemy is storing the grenade).

[quentra]

Yep. Puppeteer is nearly unusable at the current FV. Hopefully it gets errated down.

[Psikerlord]

And the opposition is going to leave their grenades online and vulnerable to being bricked by an enemy decker, or supernaturally charismatic TM? Not having a grenade go off when you need it to is almost as bad as having it go off when you don't want it to.

no, thats why puppeteer is so good. a hacker doesnt have enough time in one phase to mark and detonate an enemys grenade. a techo on the other hand can.

example: enemy readies grenade and turns on wireless (2 simple)
techno uses puppeteer and enemy team goes boom.
hacker in this situation can get a mark but cant do anything till next phase. not entirely true, hacker could jam signals and stop the grenade's wireless from working, rendering it harmless.

even sneakier example:
techo sees enemy with grenade bandolier, delays his action.
enemy turns on wireless and quickdraws grenade and is about to throw it...
techno takee his delayed action at the sane time, enemy goes boom with puppeteer.
hacker in his situation could again jam signals.

[SpellBinder]

If a decker is properly outfitted like he/she should be, a Sony CIY-720 with Attack at 7 and running Decryption & Hammer will do a minimum of 11 Matrix points of damage (10 + Net Hits) with a Data Spike (Marks Required: none) to a device (DR 2) that can take only 9 points (vs Willpower + 2). Yes, I know this is after the Data Spike's test of Cybercombat + Logic [Attack] vs. Intuition + 2, which is likely to be at 12 dice vs. 5 dice.

And if a decker's also got Wired Reflexes implanted, that's potentially two or three (or maybe four) at a time (assuming an idiot leaving all of his wireless on) where the TM's pulling off a single Puppeteer and asking for aspirin. In this scenario of using Puppeteer to make grenades go boom in the thrower's hand, you'll be threading this at a Level 5 for a Fading value of 9 just to ensure that the average luck doesn't net the other guy 2 hits and screw you over if you happen to hit your limit of 3 if you threaded it at a lower value.

[Jaid]

plus, the hacker doesn't need a mark on the grenade to spoof a command. you only need a mark on the device's owner.

so the hacker can get some marks in advance, potentially, and just wait for the same opportunity as the technomancer.

or, alternately, the hacker could also just use a grenade of his own, if blowing things up with a grenade is the goal.

[Ryu]

Yep. Puppeteer is nearly unusable at the current FV. Hopefully it gets errated down.

Do you want that trick to be common? It could become easy mode with low FV.

[Jaid]

Do you want that trick to be common? It could become easy mode with low FV.

option A: technomancers are like deckers minus the flexibility, ability to use augmentations freely, and ability to advance with nuyen in a meaningful way, but in exchange they get... well... abilities that they should never ever use.

option B: technomancers are like deckers minus the flexibility, ability to use augmentations freely, and ability to advance with nuyen in a meaningful way, but in exchange they get other special abilities that can let them do some really cool stuff in the matrix every now and then.

now, i dunno about you, but i look at option A and think "oh, so we're punishing people for choosing to be a technomancer", and i look at option B and think "oh, that actually sounds like a meaningful choice"

i mean, to put it into perspective... let's say you dropped the fading on puppeteer to just level (ie a 4-point reduction). in order to accomplish the vast majority of useful actions, you will need need 3 *net* hits, which means that against even the most pathetic devices that are not attached to a host and are owned by an average willpower person, you probably need a level 5 complex form to pull it off reliably. that's 5 fading to use this ability once. even if we presume 12 dice for resisting fading (which is on the high end of chargen, but doable), we're looking at taking 1 point of fading on average, which doesn't go away until you rest. if we presume you want to use it on something that is actually well-defended, you probably need to be using level 6 or 7, and you've got a very real chance of taking 3 or more points of physical fading if you manage to succeed.

and this is *every* time you use that ability.

now imagine it didn't have that significant fading reduction. you'd be resisting 11 fading, quite possibly physical, to use the ability on a device that is decently defended (ie a target that is actually worth pulling out the big guns for). and this assumes there is some reason to feel confident the device will only generate 4 hits... if the device generates 5 hits because of a lucky roll, you not only took 11 points of fading damage (which you'll need to sleep off, possibly taking a few weeks because medical technology and magic can't help), but you took 11 points of fading damage and have nothing to show for it. there is a very real possibility that you just put yourself into damage overflow to gain absolutely no benefit.

this is a problem.

[quentra]

Basically as Jaid said: Yes, Puppeteer should, in fact, be a core TM trick. It's cool, it's unique, and it has a function that's not replicated by anything else. It /feels/ technomantic. So if you reduce it down to [Level]? It actually makes your techno feel like a fucking technomancer.

[Psikerlord]

If a decker is properly outfitted like he/she should be, a Sony CIY-720 with Attack at 7 and running Decryption & Hammer will do a minimum of 11 Matrix points of damage (10 + Net Hits) with a Data Spike (Marks Required: none) to a device (DR 2) that can take only 9 points (vs Willpower + 2). Yes, I know this is after the Data Spike's test of Cybercombat + Logic [Attack] vs. Intuition + 2, which is likely to be at 12 dice vs. 5 dice.

And if a decker's also got Wired Reflexes implanted, that's potentially two or three (or maybe four) at a time (assuming an idiot leaving all of his wireless on) where the TM's pulling off a single Puppeteer and asking for aspirin. In this scenario of using Puppeteer to make grenades go boom in the thrower's hand, you'll be threading this at a Level 5 for a Fading value of 9 just to ensure that the average luck doesn't net the other guy 2 hits and screw you over if you happen to hit your limit of 3 if you threaded it at a lower value.

oh good yeah i dont know the hacker rules that well, data spike is very handy indeed! i still like the puppeteer power though, it is very flexible

[Ryu]

option A: technomancers are like deckers minus the flexibility, ability to use augmentations freely, and ability to advance with nuyen in a meaningful way, but in exchange they get... well... abilities that they should never ever use.

option B: technomancers are like deckers minus the flexibility, ability to use augmentations freely, and ability to advance with nuyen in a meaningful way, but in exchange they get other special abilities that can let them do some really cool stuff in the matrix every now and then.

now, i dunno about you, but i look at option A and think "oh, so we're punishing people for choosing to be a technomancer", and i look at option B and think "oh, that actually sounds like a meaningful choice"

i mean, to put it into perspective... let's say you dropped the fading on puppeteer to just level (ie a 4-point reduction). in order to accomplish the vast majority of useful actions, you will need need 3 *net* hits, which means that against even the most pathetic devices that are not attached to a host and are owned by an average willpower person, you probably need a level 5 complex form to pull it off reliably. that's 5 fading to use this ability once. even if we presume 12 dice for resisting fading (which is on the high end of chargen, but doable), we're looking at taking 1 point of fading on average, which doesn't go away until you rest. if we presume you want to use it on something that is actually well-defended, you probably need to be using level 6 or 7, and you've got a very real chance of taking 3 or more points of physical fading if you manage to succeed.

and this is *every* time you use that ability.

now imagine it didn't have that significant fading reduction. you'd be resisting 11 fading, quite possibly physical, to use the ability on a device that is decently defended (ie a target that is actually worth pulling out the big guns for). and this assumes there is some reason to feel confident the device will only generate 4 hits... if the device generates 5 hits because of a lucky roll, you not only took 11 points of fading damage (which you'll need to sleep off, possibly taking a few weeks because medical technology and magic can't help), but you took 11 points of fading damage and have nothing to show for it. there is a very real possibility that you just put yourself into damage overflow to gain absolutely no benefit.

this is a problem.

Fair enough. I was looking at 12 dice for fading resistance (maybe not with priority chargen, but a bit after), and at using edge on that part. IMO it would also be a problem if the TM could make every device her own just by pointing at it. No matter who owns it, no risk of fading. Now that hackers need decks again, investing into being a TM got cheaper in comparison anyway.
Should you houserule Puppeteer to lower FV, by all means try using it in combat. Working stuff works and is fun except for the target.

[RHat]

oh good yeah i dont know the hacker rules that well, data spike is very handy indeed! i still like the puppeteer power though, it is very flexible

It inflicts far too much Fading - and that, frankly, is an objective statement. There is not a single Drain code in the book higher than F+1 - even the FAR more powerful Control Thoughts, Control Actions, Mob Mind, and Mob Control don't get near F+4. Fading codes are, in general, very much out of line.

Just one of the ways that the technomancer rules feel like an afterthought that wasn't sufficiently reviewed. They could have benefited from some clarifications and cross-referencing, and they need more pages.

[Jaid]

Fair enough. I was looking at 12 dice for fading resistance (maybe not with priority chargen, but a bit after), and at using edge on that part. IMO it would also be a problem if the TM could make every device her own just by pointing at it. No matter who owns it, no risk of fading. Now that hackers need decks again, investing into being a TM got cheaper in comparison anyway.
Should you houserule Puppeteer to lower FV, by all means try using it in combat. Working stuff works and is fun except for the target.

if technomancers are to be expected to use edge every time they do anything, they really need to get bonus edge and maximum edge as part of being a technomancer.

and the thing is, most of the stuff you can do with puppeteer, you can also do with a regular decker. puppeteer doesn't make the impossible possible for the most part, it just makes the possible happen slightly faster (with the exception of owner-only actions).

[Ryu]

if technomancers are to be expected to use edge every time they do anything, they really need to get bonus edge and maximum edge as part of being a technomancer.

and the thing is, most of the stuff you can do with puppeteer, you can also do with a regular decker. puppeteer doesn't make the impossible possible for the most part, it just makes the possible happen slightly faster (with the exception of owner-only actions).

There is too much Edge going around for my tastes anyway, but that is subjective.

Puppeteer makes any matrix action happen next. I get your argument, and was just saying that there is also a "too low". "Willpower, Resonance, Software skill, Puppeteer" is a short list of requirements to commandeer any matrix node.

[Jaid]

it won't work on a lot of targets.

plus, as i said, even at just straight up level, you're probably going to be facing 5 fading for even the weakest target, and as much as 7 for the tougher ones.

at 1-3 fading per thing you want to do, it adds up *very* quickly.

[RHat]

So, compare to "Willpower, Logic/Charisma, Magic, Spellcasting, Control Thoughts/Control Actions/Mob Control/Mob Mind".

[Ryu]

So, compare to "Willpower, Logic/Charisma, Magic, Spellcasting, Control Thoughts/Control Actions/Mob Control/Mob Mind".

1- Both mage and TM can make a few basic abilities very powerful.
2- TM is to Decker what Mage is to non-adept Face. Be the former.
3- The mage faces a second resistance roll once the targets action comes up. (Will+Log-Force)
4- I assume background count will be back.
5- Control Manipulations are so good that they are somewhat taboo at our table.

I say suck it up for the Convention games or use different TM tricks, house-rule to taste for your own table.