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> Rebalancing augmentation costs.
Chance359
post Jul 27 2013, 03:28 AM
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Simply put I feel that in converting to 5th ed, the base price (not including Alpha, Beta) were raised to far in proportion to how much starting cash was increased. I'd like to put together a quick functional reference guide by section with specific items called out based on the setting.

Headware:
[ Spoiler ]

Eyeware:
[ Spoiler ]


Earware:
[ Spoiler ]

Bodyware:
[ Spoiler ]

Cyberlimbs: same as core book, copied from 4th ed.
Cyberlimb enhancements:
[ Spoiler ]

Cyberlimb accessories: as per core book
Cyberlimb weapons:
[ Spoiler ]

Cybermelee weapons as per core book except
shockhand 2.500

Basic Bioware:
[ Spoiler ]


Cultured Bioware
[ Spoiler ]
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Jaid
post Jul 27 2013, 03:35 AM
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adrenaline pump needs to be turned into something that isn't a death sentence before it matters how much it costs anyways.

it isn't quite as bad as 4th edition, but it still has a very significant chance of doing horrible things to you, with no way to control how bad it is (yet).
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 27 2013, 08:19 PM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 26 2013, 09:35 PM) *
adrenaline pump needs to be turned into something that isn't a death sentence before it matters how much it costs anyways.

it isn't quite as bad as 4th edition, but it still has a very significant chance of doing horrible things to you, with no way to control how bad it is (yet).


Indeed... A piece of gear that was good in 3rd Edition kills people left and right in subsequent editions. *Shakes Head*
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ElFenrir
post Jul 27 2013, 08:40 PM
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Those prices look good-they're a little lower than the ones I was playing with using myself.

I had Muscle Replacement at 20k/level, Cerebral Boosters and Pheremones at 20k/level, Wired was 25/125/215, Aug and Toner were 21k/24k, Skillwires were 15k/level, the Skilljack was 10k/level. Actually the Suprathyroid shared my price.

I actually left cyberlimbs alone; I actually find they're pretty powerful as is and didn't seem to feel the need to lower them. I'm actually pretty cool with most of the other prices as well except for the ones I listed. (I lowered Fake Sins to 1.5k/level as well, FWIW.)
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Mäx
post Jul 27 2013, 10:19 PM
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Yeah these seem a lot more reasonable then whats in the book, should actually be possible to make a street sam with these.
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Chance359
post Jul 28 2013, 03:21 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. I tried to strike a balance between 4th eds costs (and lower nuyen cap), a setting where ware can be mass produced, and keep it inline with the new economic model the developers seem to be following.
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Mäx
post Jul 28 2013, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (Chance359 @ Jul 28 2013, 06:21 AM) *
I tried to strike a balance between 4th eds costs (and lower nuyen cap)

It's quite weird that the devs didn't do this in the first place, but instead went back to SR3(or higher) prices for many thinks.
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ElFenrir
post Jul 28 2013, 10:34 AM
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That would have been strange on it's own, but the fact they went *lower* for many other things made it more baffling. Bone Lacing's Plastic and Aluminum are inflated about perfectly with the extra nuyen(actually, I'd say they're cheaper than the inflation) but Titanium is cheaper. Dermal Plating only went up 1k/level, which is much less than the nuyen inflation. Orthoskin and Bone Density dropped *significantly* in price, as did Damage Compensators. (If I had to at least throw a guess out there, they were trying to maybe get some of the other odd pieces to be a little more enticing. I'll say it somewhat worked for me; I do find myself looking into both of them.)

Then you have the weirdness like Synaptic Boosters being just about right in terms of how much more they cost compared to how much nuyen you have-arguably even a little *better*, as before they were 80k/level, so cost 160k of your max starting 250k if you wanted level 2, but the new ones, you pay 190k for level 2, and still have 260k of your starting nuyen...but Wired Reflexes 2 *exploded* in price; Wired 2 Alphaware you can't even start the game with by RAW due to availability, and even if you could, would cost 178,800 nuyen and 2.4 essence...you might as well splash the last 11.2k and pay 1 essence for the boosters. Even IN game, Wired 2 Deltaware are 1.5 essence and 372,000 nuyen...where you can instead go for Synaptic Boosters 3 for 275k and the same Essence cost. Uhh....yeah. Not to mention getting Synaptic 3 is easier Availability wise than Delta Wired 2.(18 vs. 20). It's...baffling, to say the least.

(One COULD bring up that Reaction Enhancers worked with Wired if you use them wireless...but then you remember your Reaction is capped to Max Stat +4, making the extra benefit you get-unless you have a really low reaction to begin with-not so immensely hot. If you started the game with Max Reaction, two Enhancers of the 3 would cap it, and you wouldn't need the 3rd and the extra Reaction from a higher grade of Reflexes wouldn't matter. I DO think that perhaps if they let you break that 'Max Stat +4' limit for your Reaction...THEN there would be a better argument for going Wired+Enhancers vs. Synaptic Boosters.) As it stands, Wired 2 is what I call 'If you have a specific Resources B Samurai and want another Initiative die to roll, get it, if you're C just get 1 and you'll be fine since you can get away with lesser reflexes these days more than SR4, and if you're A, just get Boosters 2.'

I think Boosters are perfectly priced, but yeah, the Wired prices are all kinds of off, somewhat for level 1, in spades and spades for level 2, but level 3, I'll say, is fairly on point, though once you factor in you kinda have to get them at least Beta grade if you want anything else, then it starts to mess up again.)
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FuelDrop
post Jul 28 2013, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 28 2013, 06:34 PM) *
... I DO think that perhaps if they let you break that 'Max Stat +4' limit for your Reaction...

I believe you will find that it does, and is the only way to get a stat's augmentation above +4.
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ElFenrir
post Jul 28 2013, 11:29 AM
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Wow, I missed that. Okay-that at least gives a reason to get Wired over Boosters. I mean, I STILL think Wired 2 are particularly one of the winners of 'weirdest price inflation/adjustment', but in this case of 'Why ever even touched Wired when Synaptics are a better price to essence cost regardless of level/grade of Wired', at least Wired has something extra going for it.
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LGD
post Jul 28 2013, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (Chance359 @ Jul 27 2013, 10:21 PM) *
Thanks for the feedback. I tried to strike a balance between 4th eds costs (and lower nuyen cap), a setting where ware can be mass produced, and keep it inline with the new economic model the developers seem to be following.


Really nice job, these seem much more sensible to me. They actually let you create a reasonable street samurai, and the changes to availability ensure you still have plenty of room to grow.

Personally I'm really not feeling the "new economic model" though. Lifestyle costs remained the same, but the massive increase in 'ware costs mean that it is essentially put out of reach of the masses. While this might superficially highlight the difference between the downtrodden populace and the elite operators I don't really like what it does to the game. Prices for 'ware seems based on some nebulous idea of how useful it'll be to player characters. Balance is a good thing, but in this case it ends up feeling a little too "gamey." In SR4 the costs (while hardly perfect) made more sense relative to living expenses for mass produced items and led to a situation where cyberware seemed to be moving towards a more natural integration with society. I know some people don't love the transhuman aspect of that, but it can't be the 80's/2050's forever. If profit-making is the goal of the corps (and it is) it made sense that a lot of lifestyle improvement 'ware was targeted at the low-middle income wageslaves, and I liked that it seemed reasonable that successful gangers might get enough scratch together to buy some new/used Muscle Replacement. This also led to a game/world where bootstrapping yourself into runnerhood felt possible- small scores would give you enough to reasonably afford some of the low level 'ware being produced for the general public/work force/low-level security forces and you could then leverage the edge that gave you into larger scores that allow you to afford more rarefied and correspondingly much rarer and more expensive 'ware made for serious security/military forces. This didn't always matter that much in gameplay, but in terms of background made plausible backstories for gear dependent archetypes (Sam, Rigger, Hacker) a lot more open.

In contrast it's really hard to see how a small time criminal becomes a runner in SR5 if they don't do magic, because the economics for those archetypes only really work if at some point in the past you had a power-that-be willing to drop somewhere in excess of a quarter million on your ass. The entry points for those archetypes (Wired 1, Control Rig, Deck) start at 40-50,000 nuyen. That's not impossible but it does greatly strain credibility to have someone SINless living at a low/squatter lifestyle level drop 2-10 years worth of living expenses on something that will only serve to let them to embark on an incredibly risky life as a professional criminal. If they're very lucky/successful at that job they can advance themselves in their career by buying gear/enhancements that cost as much as being able to sustain themselves in modest comfort forever! As a result those kinds of characters are heavily pushed towards a very typecast backstory- you're a former corp/military person who is trustworthy enough that people will engage in a series of dangerous criminal conspiracies with you and for some reason you are unwilling or unable to get a steadier job with one of the large organizations that is bankrolling your crimes. Or you're a crazy rich person doing it for kicks (Batman). The push towards having non-monetary motivations for doing what you do is pretty punk I guess, but I genuinely don't like what it does in terms of making all mundane archetypes heavily slanted towards being former elites (or at least privileged lackies of the elites).

That's just me ranting though- again, you did a really nice job with this and it's this kind of thing that might actually make SR5 a usable system for me.

edit:
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 28 2013, 06:29 AM) *
Wow, I missed that. Okay-that at least gives a reason to get Wired over Boosters. I mean, I STILL think Wired 2 are particularly one of the winners of 'weirdest price inflation/adjustment', but in this case of 'Why ever even touched Wired when Synaptics are a better price to essence cost regardless of level/grade of Wired', at least Wired has something extra going for it.


Even more so at the high end since Synaptic 3 locks you into never hitting the augmented Reaction cap. I really don't like how they handled stacking limits in SR5- things are tightened up for no particularly good reason and it makes some things pretty screwy- for example I'm really struggling to think of a build for which getting a Suprathyroid gland is a good idea. The Reaction will always be wasted because there isn't anything you can combine it with (that you'd use as a primary Reaction enhancer), and the Strength and Agility will only be good if you're using Muscle Replacement 3. The extra body is good, but I really doubt too many people won't decide to save money and essence by getting Toner/Augmentation 4 or just getting (presumably Delta) Augmentation 4. It's a totally overcosted trap. Adrenaline Pump suffers from similar issues on a lesser scale- though it has a bigger problem in that it might just decide to randomly kill you if you get it above rating 1 and actually attempt to use the damn thing.
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FuelDrop
post Jul 28 2013, 12:09 PM
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Ok, here's the bit I don't understand:
Cybereyes. the most common cyberware, apparently. Used to be 500 nuyen for a rating 1 with no upgrades. that's expensive, but affordable to Joe Citizen middle class consumer.
Now comes in at 4 grand, with all accessories likewise pricier. A LOT less households will pick them up if you can get glasses with the same stuff for a tiny fraction of the price. The fact is that most households in a corporate dystopia should not have that kind of petty cash lying around.

Why, as a corp, would you so severely reduce your target market's ability to spend money on your product? IT MAKES NO SENSE!
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Wakshaani
post Jul 28 2013, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jul 28 2013, 07:09 AM) *
Ok, here's the bit I don't understand:
Cybereyes. the most common cyberware, apparently. Used to be 500 nuyen for a rating 1 with no upgrades. that's expensive, but affordable to Joe Citizen middle class consumer.
Now comes in at 4 grand, with all accessories likewise pricier. A LOT less households will pick them up if you can get glasses with the same stuff for a tiny fraction of the price. The fact is that most households in a corporate dystopia should not have that kind of petty cash lying around.

Why, as a corp, would you so severely reduce your target market's ability to spend money on your product? IT MAKES NO SENSE!


Note that the corps lost a lot of stuff as a result of teh ongoing Nano situation. Makes it harder to build certain things, with bio- and cyber-ware both taking it in teh teeth.

That said, I'd love to see costs drop across the board, sometimes sharply. Grabbing from my HD, some of the costs I'd have used included:

Datajack for 50 Nuyen and 0.1 Essence (- availability)
(At the time, it cost ten times what a 'Trodenet cost but gave you no advantage whatsoever and reduced your essence. With it now helping to reduce Noise, it has a function, but I'm not certain on the price yet. Next to Cybereyes, it's the most common upgrade, however, so should be dirt cheap. In 2050, every other secretary had one, for Ghost's sake, and it spread to most salaymen within their first year. Off the cuff idea with the new rules? 200 Nuyen.)

Sim Module for 500 Nuyen and 0.2 Essence (Availability -)
Upgraded to Hot Sim for another 2000 Nuyen, with an avaiability of 8F
(Forbidden, obviously. 8 is a great "Hard to get for normal people, within reach of rookie runners" level for availability. The Sim Module itself can be implanted so that when you connect to a Commlink, you can always go cold (Or hot for Beetleheads).

Biomonitor for 200 Nuyen and 0.1 Essence (Or 1 capacity) (Availability 2)
You can buy one and strap it to your wrist for dirt cheap. A cyber version just shouldn't cost way more.)

Muscle Replacement for 2000 Nuyen/level and 0.75 Essence a level (Availabilty = Rating X3 R)
(This was too low by a good margin. 10,000 feels like a better level. The reduced Essence reflected 25 years worth of improvement.)

(Beyond this, I have Cybereyes starting at 200, Hand Razors at 250, Spurs for 1000, Skillwires for 1000 X Rating (The software kicks you in the pants but the hardware's cheap enough for use in factories churning out stuff), Reaction Enhancers at 4000 per rating... I went way, way, WAY low on my ideas. I still support several, but others, yeah, WAY too low. *peers at 40,000 for Wired 3*)


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Chance359
post Jul 29 2013, 03:19 AM
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so here's a quick comparison between the core book sam vs the revised prices

Core book:
[ Spoiler ]


revised prices
[ Spoiler ]
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 29 2013, 05:58 AM
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Wired reflexes 2/3 Delta is almost strictly worse than Synaptic booster 2/3 in your version (AND in the book version): more expensive AND more essence-costly, and prevents you from going through the TSA. The only positive point is the stacking with reaction enhancer (and if you play without houseruling the wireless bonuses out, it stacks only for dumb Sammies).
This is essence-costly cyberware. I've made the prices 20k/40k/80k and essence prices 1.5/2.5/4 and made the stacking not require wireless, and you can still consider the bioware version a worthy alternative.
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Chance359
post Jul 29 2013, 07:02 AM
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I just went back and adjusted my costs, going to 25,000, 80,000, and 150,000 respectively. To me wires 2 will always cost 3 essence unless customized, too many editions seeing it that way.
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Werewindlefr
post Jul 29 2013, 07:42 AM
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Your Delta Wired Reflexes 2 and 3 are still more expensive in essence and in nuyen. (80k*2.5 = 200k, 150k*1.5 = 375k).
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Chance359
post Jul 31 2013, 07:38 PM
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edited the first post to make a better table.
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