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> Would an implanted comlink/cyberdeck be a very bad idea?, Or headware in general for that matter...
imperialus
post Jul 27 2013, 05:35 PM
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So if you brick a piece of computer hardware it apperantly fails quite spectacularly, complete with sparks, smoke, and potentially small fires...

Now if this is implanted in your body (potentially even your head) I can only imagine that it would be very unhealthy. Even if someone is just attacking your deck he's causing it to overheat, suffer power surges, and other things you probably don't want going on inside your body.

How about other implanted cyberware? What if someone bricks a piece of headware like a smartlink or cyberyes? Do you suffer a stroke as it explodes inside your brain?
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Jaid
post Jul 27 2013, 05:49 PM
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official response is that there are no side effects at all.

in fact, the official response appears to be very busy pretending that everything they wrote describing what it means when a device is "bricked" does not actually exist.

to the point of stating that not only does it not cause any damage when this happens inside your body, but that it can also be repaired without needing any surgery at all, even if the thing that just got bricked is surgically implanted inside your body with no plausible way to access it externally, like reaction enhancers or wired reflexes.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 27 2013, 08:29 PM
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Yep... It is complete lunacy... *sigh*
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quentra
post Jul 27 2013, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE (SR5)
Repairing Matrix Damage
If you have a device with Matrix damage, you can repair
it with a toolkit, an hour of work, and a Hardware
+ Logic [Mental] test. Every hit you get can be used
to either remove one box of Matrix damage or cut the
time required in half; the first die spent toward time reduces
the time to half an hour, the second to 15 minutes,
and so on, to a minimum of one Combat Turn (3
seconds). Bricked or not, the device is off-line and unusable
during the repair process.
If you critically glitch on the roll to repair your device,
thatís it. The device is permanently bricked. You can use
it as a paperweight, an object lesson, or (if you need
one) a brick. If you glitch, the device can be restored to
functionality, but it becomes a bit glitchy (the gamemaster
will tell you how at an appropriate moment).


I wonder if that magically lets you repair bricked 'ware too? (By RAW, of course, because otherwise lol, hardware doesn't quite apply to cutting someone open to get to their wired reflexes.)
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imperialus
post Jul 27 2013, 09:00 PM
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QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 27 2013, 02:35 PM) *
I wonder if that magically lets you repair bricked 'ware too? (By RAW, of course, because otherwise lol, hardware doesn't quite apply to cutting someone open to get to their wired reflexes.)


Actually that's kinda interesting... Your hardware guy might need to ride shotgun with your streetdoc to get you patched up after a nasty enough firefight.

Of course, an above average streetdoc with the ability to work on cyberware would likely have the ability to repair the ware itself too. Not something you're likely to find in Butcher Bob's Small Animal & Daysurgury clinic out in Redmond, but really a decent streetdoc should be a pretty important contact for a street sam anyhow, and it would make sense that anyone with the skills to perform cybersurgury would also be able to fix the stuff too.

An interesting compromise might be to allow the cybersurgury skill to be used as a substitute for the hardware skill for any implanted device.
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Sendaz
post Jul 27 2013, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (imperialus @ Jul 27 2013, 05:00 PM) *
An interesting compromise might be to allow the cybersurgury skill to be used as a substitute for the hardware skill for any implanted device.

That is actually a good idea, but probably won't fly. They will argue CS is just for installing, but you need hardware to repair.

I would be inclined to consider it at least...
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kzt
post Jul 27 2013, 11:16 PM
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Aside from the lunacy of "bricking" as a game mechanic RF fingerprinting makes the idea of implanting a transceiver in the head of someone who wants to be able to be anonymous and deniable a pretty bad idea.
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Jaid
post Jul 28 2013, 01:13 AM
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QUOTE (imperialus @ Jul 27 2013, 04:00 PM) *
Actually that's kinda interesting... Your hardware guy might need to ride shotgun with your streetdoc to get you patched up after a nasty enough firefight.

Of course, an above average streetdoc with the ability to work on cyberware would likely have the ability to repair the ware itself too. Not something you're likely to find in Butcher Bob's Small Animal & Daysurgury clinic out in Redmond, but really a decent streetdoc should be a pretty important contact for a street sam anyhow, and it would make sense that anyone with the skills to perform cybersurgury would also be able to fix the stuff too.

An interesting compromise might be to allow the cybersurgury skill to be used as a substitute for the hardware skill for any implanted device.


like i said, we've already been told that the intent is that you don't need to perform any sort of surgery to repair damaged cyberware.

for example, see:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1235738

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1235778

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1235792

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1235820

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1235821

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1235825

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1235856

there may be more, but that's basically a bunch of freelancer explanations of how they understand the rule as having been meant to function. you're welcome to wait for official clarification from CGL if you want, but... well, they don't have a good track record on providing rules clarifications or errata. apart from missions. so this is about as close to "official" (or at least "what the author intended when they wrote it") as you're likely to get any time soon.
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quentra
post Jul 28 2013, 01:14 AM
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So you can, then, by apparent unofficial RAI, magically repair cyberware implanted in your body with a hardware+logic test. Chalk it up to the magical power of the Matrix! Or something.
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Jaid
post Jul 28 2013, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE (quentra @ Jul 27 2013, 08:14 PM) *
So you can, then, by apparent unofficial RAI, magically repair cyberware implanted in your body with a hardware+logic test. Chalk it up to the magical power of the Matrix! Or something.


i didn't say it made sense. i'm just telling you what the freelancers have told us was the intent. so yes, apparently in addition to transmitting data via quantum mechanics (thus enabling you to send a signal out into the matrix and have it arrive back inside your body faster than you could send it through internal fiberoptic cables), the matrix can also be used to replace burnt microchips and melted wires. and also prevents sparks in your brain or neural tissue from damaging anything in the slightest.

tbh, i'd probably care about this nonsense a whole lot more if it wasn't for the fact that i fully intend to never put any sort of cyberware on the matrix in the first place (well, except for maybe a datajack). but, since i think you'd have to be an idiot to put your cybereyes or wired reflexes on the matrix where they can be bricked, it really doesn't matter.
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Psikerlord
post Jul 28 2013, 10:00 AM
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it has tobe this wayfor balance reasons. chalk it up to slow reboot or repair systems, who knows, the internal ware comes with some limited repair nanites or something. cyberware scanner repair device reformats it to default somehow, or activates the nanites, or.... etc.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 28 2013, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Jul 28 2013, 04:00 AM) *
it has tobe this wayfor balance reasons. chalk it up to slow reboot or repair systems, who knows, the internal ware comes with some limited repair nanites or something. cyberware scanner repair device reformats it to default somehow, or activates the nanites, or.... etc.


No, it doesn't. It has to be that way because someone decided that Hackers were sad pandas who had nothing to do in combat (which was total BS to start with).
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imperialus
post Jul 28 2013, 04:38 PM
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Actually the more I read it the more I kinda like the rules, especially as I think about how they would actually play out, or how I would have them play out.

It's not like bricking a device is going to be instant, especially if the opposition has an iota of sense and slaves their ware and gear to a half decent comlink, or their own decker. Say a decker does get a hit or two on a piece of ware using a brute force attack. It's going to warn its owner that something shady is going on... Like someone in one of the other threads said "If you're in the middle of a run and the cybernetic equivalent of your 'check engine' light comes on you know you need to deal with it right fragging now."

Once the device has alerted its owner that someone is trying to hack it, then you call in your decker as backup, and/or just turn off the wireless. Sure, you might loose your smartlink for the fight, but you do have that option.

Now as all this is going on bullets are flying and spells are slinging. Other stuff is happening. The matrix fight is just one aspect, and one that isn't even likely to kill its victims directly, and there are reasonably effective defenses to it that anyone with the money necessary to buy Transys Avalon can do, you don't even need a professional decker.

Really is it any worse than a mage casting Mob Control and getting an entire security team to eat the barrels of their guns? The only defense against that is your own logic + willpower (good luck street sam) or a counterspelling mage.

As for fixing it, after a fight that is desperate enough to involve a piece of ware actually getting bricked chances are pretty good that the owner of said ware is sporting a few cuts/abrasions/bullet holes himself, and is going to need a trip to his friendly neighborhood street doc. Since people can take damage to their ware it would make sense that either the doc would have an idea as to how to fix up cyberware that has been bricked, or he would be working with someone who does. That means that the same time your street sam is out and getting the shrapnel removed from his spleen he's also getting his cybereyes fixed.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 28 2013, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 28 2013, 08:54 AM) *
No, it doesn't. It has to be that way because someone decided that Hackers were sad pandas who had nothing to do in combat (which was total BS to start with).
I whole heartily agree with this.
QUOTE (imperialus @ Jul 28 2013, 10:38 AM) *
Actually the more I read it the more I kinda like the rules, especially as I think about how they would actually play out, or how I would have them play out.

It's not like bricking a device is going to be instant, especially if the opposition has an iota of sense and slaves their ware and gear to a half decent comlink, or their own decker. Say a decker does get a hit or two on a piece of ware using a brute force attack. It's going to warn its owner that something shady is going on... Like someone in one of the other threads said "If you're in the middle of a run and the cybernetic equivalent of your 'check engine' light comes on you know you need to deal with it right fragging now."

...
The first serious decker I make is going to take Codeslinger (Data Spike); with the right gear and programs, and if you've got the time & skill to get the marks, you can be dishing out upwards of 19 + Net Hits of Matrix damage to a device per attack from a Data Spike on a target.

I think I'm gonna try the feasibility of this...
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imperialus
post Jul 28 2013, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 28 2013, 11:08 AM) *
I whole heartily agree with this.
The first serious decker I make is going to take Codeslinger (Data Spike); with the right gear and programs, and if you've got the time & skill to get the marks, you can be dishing out upwards of 19 + Net Hits of Matrix damage to a device per attack from a Data Spike on a target.

I think I'm gonna try the feasibility of this...


In this case though it's about the time to get those marks... Sure, if you spend time sleezing through someones ware you can get your 3 marks and do a lot of damage, but other stuff is still going on... and you could always fail one of those hack on the fly checks which would cause problems.

Besides, it's not like there aren't dozens of other ways in Shadowrun to totally frag something up if you are willing to focus in that direction.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 28 2013, 05:24 PM
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Skip the marks, and the damage drops to 10 + Net Hits. Data Spike doesn't require marks to use, it only gets better if the target's marked.

And if you're gonna mark anyway, with an Attack as high as is necessary for this kind of damage output, Brute Force it instead for those marks, which can net you some extra damage.
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