What's the best way to twink you've ever heard of?, Or done? Options

[A Clockwork Lime]

"Why" doesn't really matter. If you rip the horns or fangs off of someone, you just damaged the weapon as much as you did by breaking the tip off a spear. In their natural state, they have their own Reach bonuses. Any variation of that natural state effectively makes it another weapon with its own stats, even if those stats or size/length might be close.

If you break a Bo Stick in half, you now have two Reach 1 Clubs. Since Lilt's apparently worried about and allowing someone to damage cybernetic Fangs and Horns and use them as Reach 0 weapons, the same concern can be found here. You just snagged two Reach 1 Weapon Foci for the price of a Reach 2 Weapon Focus; a significant savings in Karma and nuyen [Force 6; 30 Karma and 1,740,000¥ as a Reach 2 vs. two Reach 1 at 48 Karma and 2,280,000¥]. The absurdity of that, however, is the same as with these Reach -1 weapons. Just because they can be used another way if you break 'em, that doesn't mean they're not exactly what they are in their standard incarnation.

The bit about orichalcum being the reason reach weapons have different costs is just a rationalization to help explain a possibility. Nothing in the rules state that's the source of the cost, and indeed, the enchanting rules themselves make no reference to it -- it's just a fluff comment in the core rules, and that fluff comment merely says that orichalcum is used in its construction, not that it's dependant on the weapon's Reach (or even necessarily found in the weapon itself, though I might be wrong on that particular point). It certainly helps lower the First Bonding Karma costs for Weapon Foci, though.

Want another example? Take a Mace (Concealability 4, Weight 2) and a Morning Star (Concealability 4, Weight 2). They're essentially the exact same size, one just has a short chain on it. Yet one is Reach 1 while the other is Reach 2. If you cut the head off a Mace and attached it back with a short chain, you'd have a Morning Star. By the rules, you'd still be in contact with the weapon while using it (just as you would be with the hybrid spear you made out of a knife; it's still a single weapon and that's all the rules make reference to). Nothing in the rules say you have to be touching the damaging part of the weapon, only that the weapon has to be in your hands when it damages someone or something. The same is true of all foci; you can wear an amulet Power Focus around your clothing-covered neck and resting on your shirt, and it's still in contact with you even though you're not directly touching it.

And honestly, I don't know if I'd put a broken tooth as a Reach 0 even if used in someone's hand. That's, like, tiny.

[Kagetenshi]

[Fygg Nuuton]

but your touching the stick which is touching the dagger.

its the magic harpoon with a cable argument

[Zazen]

[Kagetenshi]

Arguably it only has to be touching your aura.

~J

[A Clockwork Lime]

Not really, it just has to be in contact with you. Nothing in those rules says it has to be in direct contact with you, let alone your aura or your flesh. I know it's a nitpick, but apparently that's what we're doing here. :) Some quotes to show you what I mean:

SR3 p. 190, Activation: "Once activated, a focus continues to operate as long as its on the owner's person." Only if it is snatched away or dropped do you lose the benefits of it.

SR3 p. 191, Weapon Focus: "As soon as the focus is no longer in contact with its owner, it deactivates."

You can be a Raistlin-style mage with a Power Focus crystal snuggly held in the grasp of an ordinary staff if you like, and you can activate and gain its benefits as long as you're touching the staff.

[Lilt]

A horn could be removed from someone's head without massive structural alteration.

The natural state of a troll's cyberhorns gives it reach 0, I ask again how much it would cost to enchant such a weapon.

Sawing a weapon in half or sawing part of a weapon off is a fairly good ground for the enchantment to be broken.

I am fully aware that what I said about orichalcum is rationalisation, it is not the center of my argument.

Again, if you break the focus then presumably the enchantment goes too. Thus the mace/morningstar argument dosen't work.

A fang, however, could concieveably be used as a weapon, especially if you strapped it onto your hand or had it implanted like a claw or something.

[Zazen]

Yeah, on re-reading I see that I'm wrong, the "contact" is pretty vague. I think it's safe to say that you can't put it on the end of a two-meter stick, though.

[RedmondLarry]

Twinking Attributes with Quickened Spells.

I observed a year ago that if you are going to raise an Attribute with a Quickened Spell, you get a better result if the Attribute starts low than if the attribute starts high.

Let's say you've found a way to use 24 dice to Increase an Attribute, and you roll once, here are the likely results:

Start 7, 4 successes, 9 final, need force 2 spell
Start 6, 4 successes, 8 final, need force 2 spell
Start 5, 8 successes, 9 final, need force 4 spell
Start 4, 12 successes, 10 final, need force 6 spell
Start 3, 16 successes, 11 final, need force 8 spell
Start 2, 20 successes, 12 final, need force 10 spell
Start 1, 20 successes, 11 final, need force 10 spell

However, it's 10 Karma to learn a force 10 spell, and 12 Karma to Quicken it in a way that's very difficult to get destroyed. 22 Karma total to get an Attribute from 2 to 12.

Compare this to the 36 Karma cost to raise a natural attribute from 2 to 6.

I then made a Shapeshifter spellcaster, with all 6 physical attributes at 2.

Then I discovered that it can take years to learn a high force spell. Dang.

[Lantzer]

[Lantzer]

[cutter07]

<cough> Move,.. by,.. wire<cough> delta grade, nuff said

[John Campbell]

[RedmondLarry]

The magician with an extra pair of cybereyes on the Right Hand.
That Hand, you know of it. The cyber hand on the end of the cyberarm.
The Hand that has 20m of coiled optical cable connecting the cybereyes and motor signals of the hand to the rest of the arm.
The Hand that is detachable, but remains connected to the arm with 20m of grapple line, with a grapple rewinder (DNI controlled) in the stump of the arm.

He can leave the hand at the corner casting spells while the team leads him away, only to reel it in when done. Or hang onto a windowsill and lower himself 6 stories. Or finger-walk across the floor to touch that thing you wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole.

The Hand

[snowRaven]

Would you allow someone to put a knife at the end of their weapon foci staff and use it as a spear with all the benefits?

As far as the horns/teeth argument goes... Reach is usually an indicator of weapon size - teeth are very short, even if they are fangs, so they could count as Reach -1 weapons for purposes of enchanting. But... what about hand razors? They can surely not be significantly longer than the fangs, yet they have the same reach as a knife... A horn will be approximately the same size as a knifeblade.

One way to look at it is this - fangs are just two small 'blades' - don't use much orichalcum. Hand razors are usually 4 or 5 blades - use twice the amount of orichalcum, or about the same as a regular knife blade. A horn should, imo, not be smaller than a knife blade and thus not use less orichalcum than that - but look at the quotes from cannon companion; it states that fang-attacks have a -1 reach modifier, while Horns suffer a -1 Reach penalty. To me, this implies that the horns get the reach penalty because of where they are, and the fangs because of how small they are. Technicalities, but it would allow for purchasing Reach -1 weapon foci as fangs while having horns cost the same as a regular 0 Reach weapon.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Reach has nothing to do with size. Length, perhaps, but definitely not size. A claymore or no-dachi is *significantly* larger than a manriki-gusari just like a Long Cougar Fineblade is *significantly* larger than five fingernails.

Reach is exactly what it is -- Reach. By the rules, cybernetic Fangs and Horns have a Reach of -1, and by the rules, they're cheaper to get as weapon foci than Reach 0 weapons. JUST like Reach 0 weapons are chepaer than Reach 1 weapons. JUST like Reach 1 weapons are cheaper than Reach 2 weapons. The price difference is identical between all of those, as well.

The pitfalls of using a Reach -1 weapon more than make up for the cost; you're going to be in bad shape against someone using just their fists unless you have Close Combat, which means you *have* to spend Skill Points on at least four points of a martial art and two maneuvers, and you *have* to use it each and every time you're in a fight unless fighting someone else with horns and fangs, lest you be at a significant disadvantage. Since you're going to be using Close Combat so often, that means you're not going to be able to use other options or maneuvers simultaneously, so it sucks to be you. No Whirling, no Multi-Strike, no Evasion. Just Close Combat.

[Kakkaraun]

You still haven't answered the main question, ACL:

I have two weapons in front of me, and they're both the same exact size, type, and of the same composition. Yet, because one of them is going to be stapled to my forehead, it's extremely cheaper to get it Foci-cized. Why?

[A Clockwork Lime]

If the retractable horn had a handle on it and could be used without penalty in that fashion, I'd say it was a Reach 0 weapon. Unfortuantely, it doesn't come with a handle. Just like retractable Fangs don't come with one, either.

Enchanting has nothing to do with size, and honestly, the only reason Weapon Foci have different costs for Reach is because different Reach bonuses affect how well that weapon functions. Orichalcum has no dependancy on Reach whatsoever as per the Enchanting rules, or even the fluff description; you just have to use some (ie, one unit) in its construction. The different costs for Reach is a total game-balance issue.

[Kagetenshi]

Manrikigusai are only about a meter long. They have Reach 2 because it is amazingly difficult to actually block one.

~J

[Zazen]

[RedmondLarry]

That's not twinking. It's a rule. We use it. If you put it on the end of your hand or on a stick, then it isn't a Fang or a Horn (Reach -1).

[Zazen]

Well, it was posted to this twinking thread for a reason.

As Lilt pointed out, the weapons don't have reach themselves, merely the attack rolls made with them. This is, obviously, because you're using your head instead of your arm.

[simonw2000]

I've read Mission Briefing and

[ Spoiler ]

There's one cyber-mage who has a retractable spur for a weapon foci. That's twinking by canon.

[Lilt]

Just for completeness-sake this should be mentioned here:
Using Decrease Attribute spells before Increase Attribute spells

Lots of people disallow it somehow, but it's still twink so should probably be mentioned here.

[Zazen]

I once had a player take it a step further, trying to use Decrease Charisma before enhancing his stat with karma.