Help for a new GM - my players are thrashing me. Options

[Opti]

My shaman player continually summons a force 4 air spirit and uses engulf on everything. It uses the air engulf which bypasses armor, and does a crap-ton of stun damage. Nearly everything except boss-types fall easily within the first round since they automatically take damage again on thier action phase, and cant do anything until they escape. Are we playing this wrong, or is there something I should be doing to remedy this?

Another of my players wants to create and sell spell formula for foci and sell them to his talismonger contact. He created a force 4 power focus (it took 4 days) and now wants to sell it (according to the rules for fencing to contacts) for 18,000 (foci power (4)x 18,000 = 72,000, and sold for 5% x loyalty rating (5) = 18,000) nuyen. I went step-by-step and this seems legit, but also seems like a cheap way to get a lot of money for no real work.

Lastly, one of my players used Mob Mind in the first round of combat to make an entire street gang shoot themselves in the head, since he got 5 successes and their resist pool was only 4 dice each. Help on this stuff?

Thanks.

[phlapjack77]

Just some thoughts below

My shaman player continually summons a force 4 air spirit and uses engulf on everything. It uses the air engulf which bypasses armor, and does a crap-ton of stun damage. Nearly everything except boss-types fall easily within the first round since they automatically take damage again on thier action phase, and cant do anything until they escape. Are we playing this wrong, or is there something I should be doing to remedy this?

Engulf only hits one target at a time, so while the spirit is engulfing one foe, another should be able to put the spirit down with guns/magic/melee. F4 is pretty tough but not that tough that a mook with a heavy pistol can't hurt it. Also, air engulf won't work if the target has protection against inhalation toxin attacks, so after your player does this tactic a few times, maybe word gets around and security starts showing up with gas masks or similar.

Another of my players wants to create and sell spell formula for foci and sell them to his talismonger contact. He created a force 4 power focus (it took 4 days) and now wants to sell it (according to the rules for fencing to contacts) for 18,000 (foci power (4)x 18,000 = 72,000, and sold for 5% x loyalty rating (5) = 18,000) nuyen. I went step-by-step and this seems legit, but also seems like a cheap way to get a lot of money for no real work.

Too lazy to look anything up at the moment, but doesn't it cost money to make the focus? If he's just selling the formula, it shouldn't be worth that much. If he IS making the actual focus, I think it takes longer and costs more in materials.

Lastly, one of my players used Mob Mind in the first round of combat to make an entire street gang shoot themselves in the head, since he got 5 successes and their resist pool was only 4 dice each. Help on this stuff?

Mind control spells are powerful. Some people might suggest slightly screwing players who use them ("word gets around about the bad things your mage does and they get a negative rep"). Honestly, I think if you're going to do that, just be upfront and ban the spells outright. Also, the radius of the spell shouldn't be able to target every single foe, do they all huddle together so that a single grenade could hit them?

[Umidori]

To combat the Air Spirit engulfing foes, send in foes that are immune to Stun Damage, like Drones. Additionally, remember that Engulf is a Single Target, Touch-Range ability that requires a sucessful melee attack to operate. If the opposition has the advantage of numbers, or is good at Dodging, Parrying, or Blocking the melee attacks, they will have an edge up against the spirit. Also, "Geek the mage!" is fairly common knowledge among anyone semi-trained for combat.

As for the talismongering, I'm not entirely clear what your player is doing. You say they're selling Focus Formulas, but then you make it sound like they're selling actual Foci instead of just the formulas. If they're just selling the Formula, they can only really get paid once, since then the talismonger already has the formula. (You can even say that, nope, the NPC won't buy your formula because they already have a copy or they have no use for it because they are of a different magical tradition, or whatever.)

If they're actually making full Foci, make sure you're enforcing the costs and availability for the Telesma and Reagents that go into artificing a focus. Getting a hold of proper Reagents is vastly cheaper and easier in SR5 than it was in SR4, but remember that not all reagents are useable in all formulas and traditions - the GM has final say on what exact reagents a formula requires, and how available they are locally. If your shaman is making lots of copies of a focus made out of pristine wolf bones and meteoric iron, the local supply of such materials may quickly be exhausted, and ordering more from other areas may draw unfriendly attention from those who watch the magical goods markets.

Additionally, make sure you're enforcing the proper usage of a Ritual Lodge. If they're renting or borrowing someone else's Lodge, make it difficult for them to get bookings because other people want to use it as well. If they try to find another lodge, remember that lodges are specific to magical traditions, so it may be difficult to find another suitable lodge nearby. If the player has their own Lodge, they need to keep it properly stocked and safe from astral threats. An unguarded Lodge could potentially be a beacon for mischievous or even malevolent spirits. If they are making Temporary Lodges via reagents, either restrict their access to reagents as above, or occasionally take advantage of the limitations of the lodge only lasting until sunset or sunrise to have potential disruptions occur which might throw off their schedule and force them to start over on another day and waste reagents.

Mob Mind is powerful, but even low level gangers get at least two rolls to resist. The first occurs when the spell is cast. If the defender fails, after the mage spends a Simple Action to command them in addition to the action spent casting the spell, the defender gets to resist again on their turn when they're about to carry out the command. Every hit they make resisting reduces the net hits of the spell, which also reduces the amount of time the spell can be sustained. Also, if the mage is getting 5 hits, they have to be casting at Force 5 or higher to do, which means they're going to have to resist 6 Drain, which is nothing to sneeze at.

~Umi

[Slide]

I replyed to you on shadowruntabletop but just thought of something else. If your team is walking over street gangers like nothing, it could very simply be they outclass street gangers. Not that hard to do with a 400 bp character (what ed is this?) But if they are wiping the floor with the gangs, other gangs will take notice, and the organized crime that is backing the gangs. Just a thought.

[FuelDrop]

My shaman player continually summons a force 4 air spirit and uses engulf on everything. It uses the air engulf which bypasses armor, and does a crap-ton of stun damage. Nearly everything except boss-types fall easily within the first round since they automatically take damage again on thier action phase, and cant do anything until they escape. Are we playing this wrong, or is there something I should be doing to remedy this?

Respirators are owned by nearly everyone in the 6th world, complements of corps polluting the air. At rating 6 your guards have increased their dicepool by 150% (assuming body 4). If someone sees air spirits or gas weapons on camera, you can bet there's a cache of gas masks for just such situations.

Lastly, one of my players used Mob Mind in the first round of combat to make an entire street gang shoot themselves in the head, since he got 5 successes and their resist pool was only 4 dice each. Help on this stuff?

Thanks.

Smoke grenade. he can't target what he can't see. Drones, good luck mind-controlling that (Plus immune to air engulf, and fairly cheap). Snipers (Some people think they can mind control me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one who can mind control bullets). Berserk enemies (It doesn't matter if you mind control them, they're attacking the nearest target anyway.)

[SpellBinder]

Then there's the ever popular background count...

Also, air elementals are to the Illusion aspect of a shaman's spirits. If your shamanic player is constantly using air elementals to fight for him/her, they could get a bit upset about it. On top of that any character can perform an Attack Of Will against a spirit (Street Magic, page 94 for details). Might be crazy difficult, but desperate people do desperate things.

I'd also suggest reading up on the Counterspelling skill, particularly the Dispelling Sustained Spells section on page 185 of the SR4a book.

[Umidori]

Berserk enemies (It doesn't matter if you mind control them, they're attacking the nearest target anyway.)

That... that's brilliant! *adds it to his List O' Tricks*

~Umi

[FuelDrop]

That... that's brilliant! *adds it to his List O' Tricks*

~Umi

"I cast mind control!"
"Ok. Their trode nets detect the sudden change in thought patterns and automatically activates their auto-injectors full of Woad/K10."
"... I didn't see that coming. Their boss is a bit paranoid, isn't he?"
"Yup. I did tell you that when you did the research."

[Umidori]

Wait, K-10? Their boss is willing to kill them, eh? They must have excellent benefits packages.

~Umi

[FuelDrop]

Wait, K-10? Their boss is willing to kill them, eh? They must have excellent benefits packages.

~Umi

Well, considering that the guards might be anything from gangers protecting their boss with their families held hostage to fanatics to personachiped hobos ect there are many reasons in the 6th world for the boss not to care about his employees.

That said, I personally would favor using K-10 on large dogs, then simply shooting them after the shadowrunners have been eaten.

[Umidori]

I'm totally a dog person, so I'm feeling very conflicted about wanting to add that to my List O' Tricks as well.

~Umi

[FuelDrop]

I'm totally a dog person, so I'm feeling very conflicted about wanting to add that to my List O' Tricks as well.

~Umi

Use clone guard dogs. That way, you're just killing clones. Also, cheaper.

[Slide]

"K-10? No we would never encourage our employees to take anything so dangerous. We have them wear a package of auto-injectors with epinephrine in the case they undergo cardiac arrest on the job. We are a remote facility and unable to guarantee medical responders would be able to arrive in time."

And umi? What do you have against the K-10 K-9s?

[Umidori]

How is that any less heinous or immoral?

"You're shooting dogs up with lethal combat drugs?!?"
"Whoa, whoa, no, it's cool! They're not normal dogs, they're dogs that we forcibly bred with the express purpose of being disposable!"
"How is that better?"
"Well they're clones! They all have the same genetic material!"
"Did you somehow genetically engineer them to not feel pain or suffering?"
"Err... well... no...?"
"So instead of just drugging and killing dogs, you're drugging and killing dogs that were forcibly bred purely to be weaponized and killed!"
"Well when you put it that way..."

~Umi

[Slide]

You are so right Umi, and that's why its compleatly cyberpunk (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[FuelDrop]

How is that any less heinous or immoral?

"You're shooting dogs up with lethal combat drugs?!?"
"Whoa, whoa, no, it's cool! They're not normal dogs, they're dogs that we forcibly bred with the express purpose of being disposable!"
"How is that better?"
"Well they're clones! They all have the same genetic material!"
"Did you somehow genetically engineer they not feel pain or suffering?"
"Err... well... no...?"
"So instead of just drugging and killing dogs, you're drugging and killing dogs that were forcibly bred purely to be weaponized and killed!"
"Well when you put it that way..."

~Umi

"But it's so cost efficient! The whole setup costs just over a grand per unit, far less than any combat-ready drone. Also, we keep most of them in cryogenic status until we need them to cut down on food costs. The rapid thawing does leave them with only a few hours left to live, but that doesn't really matter."
"That's hideous! They're living creatures!"
"If it wasn't for the low-cost defense system our boss wouldn't have gotten the bonus he needed to buy his second yacht."
"Well when you put it like that..."

[Umidori]

Now if it was Devil Rats? Pfft, who cares about a non domesticated prey species?

Alternatively, since Hellhounds are completely nasty and horrible critters unlike domesticated dogs, I could totally see giving them K-10... except for the cost of replacements. Hrrm.

~Umi

[Shortstraw]

While it may be the Australian in me I always favored dropping a K-10'd grizzly bear out of a helicopter and letting it default on the way down with 11 dice.

[Slide]

I did want to build a corp that marketed enhanced dogs as the ultimate rescue/guard dog. But man, cerebral boosters on a pooch seems to be going a bit over board. 30-100K each? Pretty pricey.

[Slide]

While it may be the Australian in me I always favored dropping a K-10'd grizzly bear out of a helicopter and letting it default on the way down with 11 dice.

And this is why Australia has a drop bear epidemic.

[Umidori]

No, no. Use actual Drop Bears.

They aren't as nasty stat and damage wise, but they're Carriers for HMHVV II, turning Human and Troll victims into Loup-Garou and Fomóraig, and they also have Adaptive Coloration, which means victims suffer -6 to visually perceive them, which means they suffer Surprise attacks, which means they can't defend.

~Umi

[Shortstraw]

Very well a K-10'd Grizzly with a wingsuit and jetpack carrying a sack full of drop bears.

[FuelDrop]

I actually suggested guard dogs because they're, you know, something that a corp might have at their facility.

Drop bears, real bears, Elephants (Those things are insanely statted), Blue whales (B 24 A 4 R 4 S 25) are all awesomely badass and dangerous when pumped full of K-10, but they're not likely to be used as guard animals.

[Umidori]

*eyes widen in horror*

So some Dumpshockers are familiar with the story of how my runners once Oxygenated and Levitated a shark to use as a living, mauling missile...

What the frag do I do if they ever find a Blue Whale? I'd be tempted to call in PETA or Terra First! or something to get in their way, but I'm afraid my runners would just crush them with the whale!

~Umi

[FuelDrop]

*eyes widen in horror*

So some Dumpshockers are familiar with the story of how my runners once Oxygenated and Levitated a shark to use as a living, mauling missile...

What the frag do I do if they ever find a Blue Whale? I'd be tempted to call in PETA or Terra First! or something to get in their way, but I'm afraid they runners would just crush them with the whale.

~Umi

Yeah. Now I want you to imagine Mass critter control and a herd of whales. Also, they come with 2/4 armour in case their immense body wasn't enough.

Actually, I can totally see some a**h*** runners using critter control to surface whales, stick them with K-10, then let them go and watch the chaos.


Add levitate to make it a living mauling missile (It already breathes air) and you have the destroyer incarnate. Not to mention how awesome it'd be to have a group of runners fly into town on the back of an enraged flying whale.

How many hits do you think you'd need on your levitate spell to get that thing into the air?