[X] My Assistant

[Voran]

In regards to the 5th edition, ammunition is based off of type, class and caseless/cased. Is this a metagame concept to allow for less book-keeping (rather than keep separate track of costs for an AK, vs an Ares, vs a Colt, etc) or functional within the game as "Assault rifles have universal ammunition". Does the Superwarhawk use rounds that work in a Predator or a Colt Government?

In that case, (if universal ammunition) is it the quality of the weapon (Colt M23s are described as being kinda cheap mass production models, for example) that produces variable damage? The dmg of a FNHAR is superior to the Colt M23, and both are inferior to the Ares Alpha or the new Raiden. And all have different Accuracy caps too. We don't have Arsenal type mod rules yet, but can we infer that if such stats are based on construction, that a superior build/retune of a 'lower grade' weapon like an M23 could bring it up to near parity with the 'better' guns? I'd imagine cost wise it'd be a bit more expensive to retrofit a lower grade weapon, but with the benefit being that its easier to obtain than a more restricted weapon right off the bat, etc.

[Moirdryd]

I imagine that it's for book keeping purposes more than anything. I still divide up my ammo by specific gun on my sheets and my players do same.

[Elfenlied]

Ammo is standardized between the same weapon group (I simply assume all Heavy pistols fire the same caliber rounds etc.), and therefore interchangable. I imagine accuracy being a matter of weapon design/building quality, with higher accuracy weapons being designed to much tighter specifications.

I don't really know how to explain the different damage, really, and am kinda baffled that the new M23 is now worse than the AK-97.

[Aaron]

For what it's worth, we tinkered with the idea of damage being determined in SR5 by ammunition caliber and load rather than by weapon, but it was deemed a) too much of a change and b) way too much paperwork.

[saiyanslayer]

For what it's worth, we tinkered with the idea of damage being determined in SR5 by ammunition caliber and load rather than by weapon, but it was deemed a) too much of a change and b) way too much paperwork.

Neat, glad you didn't go with it though. I guess people who are into those kind of details could just make a list of firearm damage = specific calibre.

[DireRadiant]

A glitch could be described as an incorrect round being loaded if you wanted to include the flavor without book keeping

[Erik Baird]

It would be more appropriate to simply call the glitch a failure to feed. Otherwise, one has to assume the character is too stupid to load a magazine with the proper ammunition.

[White Buffalo]

A glitch could be described as an incorrect round being loaded if you wanted to include the flavor without book keeping

A crit glich could even be a "rule of 8 violation" (if you put a 20ga shell in a 12ga shotgun it'll slide down the barrell but not fall out. You then put a 12ga shell in after and fire as normal. The results aren't pretty.

[Tzeentch]

I believe there are a few examples where the weapon descriptions have explicitly said they are using a universal ammo type, but there's also been some canonical uses of actual ammunition calibers. And yeah, it has a long tradition of not making any sense (the AUG-CSL in particular is notorious).

[Jhaiisiin]

There were a few times things like this happened during the testing. An idea would get put out there, it would be deemed way too complicated/too much paperwork/tedious/etc and get nixed for something simpler. We tried to keep things flowing super smooth. I think it worked in some areas, not as much as we'd like in others.

[Remnar]

One thing I liked about CP2020 over Shadowrun was calibers. But really, its a fluff thing that I can imagine just fine on my own.

I just want to know why you guys robbed me of my Colt Manhunter AND THEN had it in an example in the book!

(its OK though, I'll survive)

[thorya]

Neat, glad you didn't go with it though. I guess people who are into those kind of details could just make a list of firearm damage = specific calibre.

Yeah, I did that in one game. It wasn't really very much paperwork though. Just had a list of common calibers and assumed that all guns were chamber in one of the common calibers. Of course, it was just using Shadowrun rules in an alternate history world, so we renamed all the guns too and made some other major setting changes that were considerably harder than keeping track of ammo.

I've also made lists of caliber = damage for SR4 guns based on damage codes.

As a rule we assume that light pistols, machine pistols, and submachine guns fire the same rounds. Heavy pistols, sub-machine guns, and light machine guns fire the same rounds. Assault rifles, rifles, medium machine guns and heavy machine guns fire the same rounds. Since you see similar trends in real world guns (with many exceptions).

[Voran]

I'm rather glad about the universal ammo. Also (blush) I just noticed the actual blurb explaining such in the ammo section of the rulebook.

Btw, was the attachment system also intended as easier book-keeping? Ever since the earlier editions I've liked the M23, since it reminded me of the M4. But with the m4 (or any gun with rail-systems) you can end up with multiple mounts off the sides, and under and over. Its kinda fun looking at one that has like a left side laser indicator, a right sight light, underside grip, topside sights with a sight that can fit infront of a 2nd sight, etc.

Also, what would recommendations be on mechanics of something like a combat optic sight (red dot, whatever). Like a laser sight without the visible laser?

[quentra]

I'm rather glad about the universal ammo. Also (blush) I just noticed the actual blurb explaining such in the ammo section of the rulebook.

Btw, was the attachment system also intended as easier book-keeping? Ever since the earlier editions I've liked the M23, since it reminded me of the M4. But with the m4 (or any gun with rail-systems) you can end up with multiple mounts off the sides, and under and over. Its kinda fun looking at one that has like a left side laser indicator, a right sight light, underside grip, topside sights with a sight that can fit infront of a 2nd sight, etc.

Also, what would recommendations be on mechanics of something like a combat optic sight (red dot, whatever). Like a laser sight without the visible laser?

That's exactly what a smartlink does. Already.

[Voran]

That's exactly what a smartlink does. Already.

That's not entirely true. If that were the case, the smartlink would have the same 'stats' as a laser, which it does not. So i'm asking, "would a red dot sight, as in conventional 21st century 'current' technology, provide the same effective bonus as a laser does in this case?" Why a red dot sight? 1)no visible laser lancing out to target 2)no need for wireless 3)immune to hacking.

[SpellBinder]

A Red Dot Sight will probably be the same as a Laser Sight, less the Wireless bonus (so just +1 Accuracy & no DP bonus). In the SR4 rules, from Gun Heaven, a Red Dot Sight gave the same +1 DP as a Laser Sight.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, what would recommendations be on mechanics of something like a combat optic sight (red dot, whatever). Like a laser sight without the visible laser?

That exists already in Shadowrun, and is in Gun Heaven.
It is called a Red Dot sight. It gives a +1 dp (much like a Laser sight does) in SR4A.

EDIT: Ooops, did not see Spellbinder's reply, apologies.

[SpellBinder]

No worries, TJ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Elfenlied]

I remember the red dot sight as a much maligned piece of rules lawyery used by many a dualwielder. Some people would go to great lengths for a measly +1 DP.

[Voran]

I remember the red dot sight as a much maligned piece of rules lawyery used by many a dualwielder. Some people would go to great lengths for a measly +1 DP.

I could see it working if the dual wield involves staggered shooting, but at the same time, or different targets? Nah.

[Elfenlied]

I could see it working if the dual wield involves staggered shooting, but at the same time, or different targets? Nah.

It's mostly a case of purple monkey fallacy, since the Red Dot sight was introduced after the dualwielding rules were written, and the rules specifically exluded lasersight and smartlink.

That said, smartlink IMO should apply if it works similar to a FPS HUD (which it does, according to fluff). It's just that the Devs somehow hate dualwielding.

[Voran]

It's mostly a case of purple monkey fallacy, since the Red Dot sight was introduced after the dualwielding rules were written, and the rules specifically exluded lasersight and smartlink.

That said, smartlink IMO should apply if it works similar to a FPS HUD (which it does, according to fluff). It's just that the Devs somehow hate dualwielding.

Heh, real life hates dual wielding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Voran]

Yknow, I do kinda wish gauss weaponry had advanced a bit more and was now available in 'assault rifle' size

[Umidori]

Heh, real life hates dual wielding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Real life also hates Trolls and pretty much everything magical, and at least half of the tech in the game. Rule of Cool, friend.

Rule of Cool.

~Umi

[Sendaz]

Yknow, I do kinda wish gauss weaponry had advanced a bit more and was now available in 'assault rifle' size

Give it time, am sure someone will tweak the Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle eventually.

Trying to up the rate of fire is going to be fun considering the power consumption it has just for its regular firing mode.

A better question will be for the Guass in SR5 will it still be Halve the armor (from SR4 errata) before applying the AP or are they retweaking that bit.