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> Eye spy with my little eye..., The problem with cybereyes.
FuelDrop
post Aug 2 2013, 09:33 AM
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Ok, I've been going through the shadowrun 5th edition cyberware, and one disconnect between fluff and crunch keeps giving me a bit of a problem.

Cybereyes.

Cybereyes are supposed to be the most common type of cyberware.
Base price on cybereyes is 4 grand.

WHAT?!?

I don't know about you, but I can't see many wage-slaves picking up the price-tag on that especially considering the corps not wanting their citizens to have a whole bunch of liquid assets to throw around. That kind of implies that it's the sort of thing that'd be given to you by the corp, but why would corps give something like this out to low-end wage slaves when they can put the same thing on glasses for a tiny fraction of the price.

More importantly, why would cybereyes be the most common form of 'ware? Datajacks are cheaper and have a practical value of giving your wageslaves DNI which increases their productivity and even then trode nets are cheaper, but datajacks at least have practical use, while cybereyes are a far more luxury asset for your average wage slave (particularly because many spend most of their time at work in VR, where a datajack is far more practical than cybereyes).

Back in 4th edition cybereyes were a mere 500 nuyen for the base model, one eighth of the price of the 5th edition version. What I want to know is why? Why make this jarring disconnection between fluff and crunch?
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Doc Chaos
post Aug 2 2013, 09:46 AM
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Cybereyes keep you tied to the Corp that supplied you with them even tighter. Regular maintenance, firmware updates, etc. Plus, you can't take off cybereyes. No way to get away from all the Corp messages, advertisement and warning labels (no getting rid of the big red warning blocking a lot of your field of view if you stray too far from Corp home). And wouldn't it be a shame if you turned completely blind in case you would try to leave the Corp's warm embrace?
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FuelDrop
post Aug 2 2013, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Aug 2 2013, 05:46 PM) *
Cybereyes keep you tied to the Corp that supplied you with them even tighter. Regular maintenance, firmware updates, etc. Plus, you can't take off cybereyes. No way to get away from all the Corp messages, advertisement and warning labels (no getting rid of the big red warning blocking a lot of your field of view if you stray too far from Corp home). And wouldn't it be a shame if you turned completely blind in case you would try to leave the Corp's warm embrace?

Implanted image link does all of the above cheaper, plus avoids the stigma of having healthy eyes plucked out and replaced with machines.
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Doc Chaos
post Aug 2 2013, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Aug 2 2013, 11:59 AM) *
Implanted image link does all of the above cheaper, plus avoids the stigma of having healthy eyes plucked out and replaced with machines.


True except for the 'turning blind' option. But I don't see how there would be a stigma if they are indeed the most common sort of cyberware.
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FuelDrop
post Aug 2 2013, 10:08 AM
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Assuming that they are...

Here's something else that Joe Wageslave might consider at a similar price: Implanted commlink. DNI, SIM module as standard, plus no chance to accidentally drop or lose this vital bit of kit. A 'good' (rating 3, which is very good for most wageslaves) commlink (implanted) costs 1000 nuyen less than a set of cybereyes, and let's face it who wouldn't want to be able to surf the matrix on a whim with their mind?

Just saying, the new more expensive cybereyes are suddenly more expensive than alternatives that have a lot of value to the target market.

Which would you buy? an implanted commlink or cybereyes?
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Doc Chaos
post Aug 2 2013, 10:25 AM
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No argument there, implant comlink seems like a much sweeter deal.
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Stahlseele
post Aug 2 2013, 10:44 AM
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i'd take the eyes.
built in sunglasses, never itchie eyes anymore, i can switch them off completely when i want to sleep, i can watch tv on them, i can record stuff with them, i can have a zoom built in, a microscope, i can see better in low light, i can see infrared if i want to . .

and 4k nuyen?
that's nothing.
10 months a 400 nuyen.
most people should be able to afford that.
cars are more expensive and still more people own cars than people own cybereyes right?
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Sengir
post Aug 2 2013, 10:45 AM
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And to make matters worse, word from Bull is that prices for everyday stuff remain mostly the same. So the price of eyes has indeed increased by 700 %.
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Stahlseele
post Aug 2 2013, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Aug 2 2013, 12:45 PM) *
And to make matters worse, word from Bull is that prices for everyday stuff remain mostly the same. So the price of eyes has indeed increased by 700 %.

no no, it's a retcon.
prices always have been this high!
they were never lower than they are in SR5!
disregard any evidence to the contrary in SR4!
SR5 is the new SR4! adapt! obey!
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Abschalten
post Aug 2 2013, 10:52 AM
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Yeah, it's more retconned, hand-wavey bullshit crammed into the game by people who thought Shadowrun was awesome when prices were ridiculous and the in-game economics beyond believable.
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Stahlseele
post Aug 2 2013, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE (Abschalten @ Aug 2 2013, 12:52 PM) *
Yeah, it's more retconned, hand-wavey bullshit crammed into the game by people who thought Shadowrun was awesome when prices were ridiculous and the in-game economics beyond believable.

Fasa-Nomics!
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FuelDrop
post Aug 2 2013, 10:55 AM
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Honestly, I'm fine with the higher price tags on a lot of the combat 'ware. It's the mundane 'ware being hiked up to an un-affordable level that bugs me.
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Sengir
post Aug 2 2013, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 2 2013, 11:48 AM) *
no no, it's a retcon.

Actually a partial de-retcon. The Million Dollar Man was replaced by 250k Boy in 4th, now we are back at 450k...bcause of nostalgia for stupid stuff?
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Stahlseele
post Aug 2 2013, 11:00 AM
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That ware became cheaper from 3rd to 4th was to be expected after years of it having been there . .
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FuelDrop
post Aug 2 2013, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 2 2013, 07:00 PM) *
That ware became cheaper from 3rd to 4th was to be expected after years of it having been there . .

NEVER! things don't become cheaper when you perfect the easiest way to create them and market them to a large section of the population, thus increasing sales exponentially and giving yourself a profitable side business in maintenance and apps which now have a near-ubiquitous market! This is shadowrun, where the bottom line is more important than everything thus we'll charge you MORE for this tech, thus reducing the cost efficiency of our app programmers and repair services because our universal market has become a niche...

Hang on, what?!?
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Mach_Ten
post Aug 2 2013, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 2 2013, 12:00 PM) *
That ware became cheaper from 3rd to 4th was to be expected after years of it having been there . .

don't forget you are paying the premium now for the wireless bonii

But seriously, this shit happens ! .. buy an iphone, 5 years later ... buy an iphone ... wait a sec it's 300 times the price ?? "yessiree mister customer, but it does 300 times the stuff and 300 times faster !"

Oh, okay then, I'll buy two !
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Doc Chaos
post Aug 2 2013, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Aug 2 2013, 01:15 PM) *
don't forget you are paying the premium now for the wireless bonii

But seriously, this shit happens ! .. buy an iphone, 5 years later ... buy an iphone ... wait a sec it's 300 times the price ?? "yessiree mister customer, but it does 300 times the stuff and 300 times faster !"

Oh, okay then, I'll buy two !


Except it doesn't, the functions are still the same.
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Mach_Ten
post Aug 2 2013, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Aug 2 2013, 12:24 PM) *
Except it doesn't, the functions are still the same.

But that's the joke isn't it !

from a purely Meta point of view, we players can see in instant gap between versions of the ruleset,

but put it into the context of the person LIVING in the gameworld and this shit happens all the time !

corsp making a buck by putting RFID tags into all the gear and then selling our personal data to someone or spamming us with NERPS adverts.

at a TOP level an Iphone fulfills the same functions as an iphone 5 or 6 or 77... but at a consumer level, we keep buying the damn things regardless of what goes in it

why ? because it has the latest McGuffin in it and this cyberpunk world is ALL about form over function.

You seem to be under the misguided impression that all this tech out there is supposed to be GOOD for shadowrunners ?

Maybe need to realise that the name of the game should be corporate Paranoia, that characters jobs should Always be looking over their shoulders cause the latest 'ware they just installed as top of the line, is actually reporting back to AAA their movements... not something they thought about even a little bit before buying it.

There are .. right now.. a bajillion examples of technology in use that someone has subverted for a purpose not intended and not imagined when it was released into the wild !

eg. a pacemaker that has wifi built in so it can get firmware upgrades and give accurate reports to the doctors and patient on it's behaviour .
Brilliant idea ... until you suddenly have some kid that hacks the RF frequency and kills that guy dead !
it wasn't imaginable at the time, and certainly wasn't part of the design specs ... or ... was it ?

be afraid, be very afraid
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Doc Chaos
post Aug 2 2013, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Aug 2 2013, 03:12 PM) *
at a TOP level an Iphone fulfills the same functions as an iphone 5 or 6 or 77... but at a consumer level, we keep buying the damn things regardless of what goes in it


Yes, and at their respective release date they were all priced more or less the same. There was no sudden increase of 500% in price when the new iPhone came out.

QUOTE
You seem to be under the misguided impression that all this tech out there is supposed to be GOOD for shadowrunners ?


As far as the Core Rulebook is concerned, yes, that is my impression. Stuff that's not really usable for Shadowrunners is always nice to have and know about, but IMHO there's no place for it in the Core Rulebook. That's stuff that should be in sourcebooks.
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Mach_Ten
post Aug 2 2013, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Aug 2 2013, 02:36 PM) *
Yes, and at their respective release date they were all priced more or less the same. There was no sudden increase of 500% in price when the new iPhone came out.

okay bad example, Nokia 3310 vs smart phone, same function.. massive differential in form and cost across 5 years

all it takes is an earthquake in Asia and RAM prices quadruple, there's probably a fluff reason for it, but really I don't much care unless the earthquake was on my doorstep, at that point cyber-eyes is the least of my concerns.
QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Aug 2 2013, 02:36 PM) *
As far as the Core Rulebook is concerned, yes, that is my impression.
Stuff that's not really usable for Shadowrunners is always nice to have and know about, but IMHO there's no place for it in the Core Rulebook. That's stuff that should be in sourcebooks.

okay the Game is called Shadowrun, but the World does not revolve around shadowrunners, they just happen to benefit from aspects like cyberware.
it was not designed with them in mind, it was designed for the populace.
We just subvert that purpose for our illegal gains.

5 years later and it's getting harder to get the same benefits from stuff without some form of drawback.
Markets change and prices do go up as well as down..

I kinda like a bit of mystery to surround stuff like this, so I can make the world my own, just think if you were coming to this having never played a previous edition, is it that big of a deal breaker ?


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Doc Chaos
post Aug 2 2013, 02:01 PM
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I never said it was a deal breaker for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I simply responded to your statements with my opinion on them.

QUOTE
okay the Game is called Shadowrun, but the World does not revolve around shadowrunners


Indeed, but the Core Rulebook should. IMHO. There is limited space and while I appreciate fluff, when it comes to equipment tables I prefer them filled with actually usable things, not entries that may be nova hot in the game world, but pointless for shadowrunners. That should go into source books.
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Mach_Ten
post Aug 2 2013, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Aug 2 2013, 03:01 PM) *
I never said it was a deal breaker for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I simply responded to your statements with my opinion on them.

likewise, not trying to force you round to a different way of thinking, just saying there is another way.

as for core rules, I kinda agree, but I like them to cover everything not just our niche in the world.

not saying I wanna play as a mere mundane NPC level in SR, like I do in nWoD as I find that to be enthralling and scary.
in this I wanna be a full on illegal combat monster walking alongside mere mortals and the rules should as you say cover that aspect,
but we shouldn't take issue with change, change happens, change is good, even if it is painful ... the pain gives us drive to change more ... ad infinitum ad nauseum.



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Sengir
post Aug 2 2013, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Aug 2 2013, 02:56 PM) *
okay bad example, Nokia 3310 vs smart phone, same function.. massive differential in form and cost across 5 years

all it takes is an earthquake in Asia and RAM prices quadruple, there's probably a fluff reason for it, but really I don't much care unless the earthquake was on my doorstep, at that point cyber-eyes is the least of my concerns.

Problem is, the money available to PCs also increased by a significant margin, while everyday consumer prices remained the same. Everybody inexplicably got a lot richer
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DireRadiant
post Aug 2 2013, 03:33 PM
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I already have eye implants. Me. Today. in RL.

Your eyes never get better. They always degenerate. Always.

4k is Nothing for a lifetime of better non degenerative vision.

4K is nothing compared to a lifetime of eye care.
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Jaid
post Aug 2 2013, 03:55 PM
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also, while it's unlikely for a wageslave to save up 4k and buy a set of eyes from nowhere, it's much more likely that a wageslave could set up a payment plan for a set of cybereyes. as someone posted above, that's 400 a month for 10 months (or at least, that's what it is before interest and fine print). i don't think that should be completely impossible for a wageslave to manage.
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