IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> In SR5 you should play a magic user
LurkerOutThere
post Aug 5 2013, 11:01 AM
Post #1


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



Really that's all there is to it. I'm trying to rebuild my character tonight for missions and it's proving to be an absolutely frustrating experience. Ware prices tripled or more from 4th edition, wireless rules make ware more vulnerable if you want to get fourth edition performance out of it. All sorts of other nitpicks. It costs for example 120 times as much to get a rating 3 Ultrasound sensor as an implant then it does as a handheld device.

I know I've kind of said it before but I really feels like there was no one advocating for Street Samurai and other 'wared character types during the design process. Hackers did ok thanks presumably in large part due to Bull's input, I'm going to presume we have Critias to thank for Mystic Adepts being the new master race. But if you enjoyed the game where machine met your magic? Well you might want to wait around for a bit.

This was mostly venting, but there it is.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ElFenrir
post Aug 5 2013, 11:07 AM
Post #2


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,168
Joined: 15-April 05
From: Helsinki, Finland
Member No.: 7,337



I made a Resources C Street Samurai recently who does just fine at everything. And that's Resources C. Now, I agree that some prices are too high-I've my own houserules to lower them and I'm still working on tweaking how Wireless bonuses will work in my games-but as it is, you can make a very, very effective character on Resources C. I had linked him in another page here, but I'll relink:

[ Spoiler ]



Again, while I do have issues with how cyber works now that I'm working at tweaking a bit for my own game, it IS playable as is and as this guy shows he can still roll 15-16 dice for his primary skills and still hits like a truck and has no problems shooting things, as well as having at least a decent Initiative. Honestly, he rolls more dice for his skills than my Adept does. You can do even more with Resources B or A, naturally, though your natural attributes will take a little hit here(or skills.) I mean I don't know Missions games so well(we don't have any of the living campaigns going around here), but I suspect, if it uses the general 5e rules, this guy would work out perfectly fine. (it's just one build example, however.) EDIT: accidentally typed 4e.

I'm also pretty sure that people were indeed advocating for cyber characters, and I don't think calling out random people without knowing everything is in good form.(Not a mod, just my opinion.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FuelDrop
post Aug 5 2013, 11:23 AM
Post #3


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,370
Joined: 20-August 12
From: Bunbury, western australia
Member No.: 53,300



The thing is that Adepts can get higher accuracy with any weapon than a mundane. only by one point, but that can still make a big difference with say a combat axe, increasing the accuracy by 25%.

Also, an adept can theoretically get up to 5 extra points in any skill over a mundane. Plus, of course, stuff like Combat sense and Adrenaline boost that mere mortals can't match (yet).

Some of the only advantages of augmented individuals have gone up in cost (EG cyber smartlink or a cyberarm gyromount), and even in those cases you can get something similar without the essence costs.

Plus, of course, you can get those few things if you are awakened if you're willing to pay the price.

One of the things that bugs me is that stuff like foci are now cheaper, which is kind of like rubbing salt in the wound.

Augmentation that gives +2 strength: Muscle augmentation: 62,000 nuyen, 0.4 essence. About 4 15 grand runs.

Qi focus that gives +2 strength: Force 4 qi focus, 12,000 nuyen 8 karma. 1-2 runs. even low paying ones.

Ok, yeah, salt meet wounds.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Aug 5 2013, 11:25 AM
Post #4


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



If you are making house rules you are not really making a counter argument Elfnrir. I can probably build an adept that can do everything your priority C sam does better and can't have his dice pool bonuses taken away by hackers, or worse have his cyber eyes bricked so he's blind.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ElFenrir
post Aug 5 2013, 11:33 AM
Post #5


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,168
Joined: 15-April 05
From: Helsinki, Finland
Member No.: 7,337



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 5 2013, 06:25 AM) *
If you are making house rules you are not really making a counter argument man. I can build an adept that can do everything your priority C adept does better and can't have his dice pool bonuses taken away by hackers, or worse have his cyber eyes bricked so he's blind.



This character was not made with houserules. You can use cybereyes offline anyway from what I can tell from the book, unless I mis-read something. But the character I made was done with the book. I could make an adept that throws 16 dice for a primary melee skill, sure, but they'd be a lot more concentrated in what they do since they'd have less Priorities to work with. (You'd need to have at least a 5 Agility and then maxed skill with another 3 points added on, for 9+2. Fairly easily done but again, they'd be more concentrated, as I *have* done this myself. But well I also don't think the sum of a character's use is how big their main die pool is.)

Limits and Accuracy I find don't come into play that often unless they are exceedingly low. To hit Accuracies of 6+, your die pools need to be pretty huge. I mean, figuring someone with a Physical Limit of 7 is going to be just fine unless they're throwing, on average, more than 21 dice. Now the Combat Axe is one of the outliers; generally, the rest of them have 6s and 7s in accuracies which is a lot harder to hit; getting the Accuracy of 8 is cool with the Katana, but you will need a whole lot of dice to really take advantage of that. (Personally I think the Combat Axe accuracy could afford to be 5 and it wouldn't be THAT much more powerful.)

(That being said, I agree the wireless bonuses need work, which is why for home games I am doing just that. But I guess I don't get bothered by rules as much since if I don't like them I change them and get on with the game.)

The Qi focus for Strength +2 would actually have to be a Force 8 Qi Focus, or 16 Karma and 24,000 nuyen combined, unless you already spent 1 point on it(which is a whole PP.) That is still good, and Augmentation can afford to be more around 45k total for +Strength and Agility 1(sort of like the old days.)

Though it's kinda funny, Adepts have always been able to get a few extra points in skills over a mundane, but it didn't seem to be a problem before.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
FuelDrop
post Aug 5 2013, 11:40 AM
Post #6


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,370
Joined: 20-August 12
From: Bunbury, western australia
Member No.: 53,300



my bad. misread.

Even so, we're talking about 24 grand and 16 karma. That's between 1/2 and 1/3 of the price tag on the augmented equivalent, minus the essence cost.

Still, focus addiction is very serious and should not be taken lightly. Donate now to your nearest adept to help them defeat their monkeys.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Aug 5 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #7


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 5 2013, 05:01 AM) *
I know I've kind of said it before but I really feels like there was no one advocating for Street Samurai and other 'wared character types during the design process.

I can assure you, that was very much not the case. It's terribly frustrating to hear someone say that, when those backstage discussions are still under NDA and I cannot tell you, personally, just how very wrong you are. If you guys knew how hard some of us had to fight to get the compromise prices we did, and if you knew what some of these prices almost were...*sigh* Ah, who am I kidding? A few of you would probably still be slinging that broad brush around, I'm sure.

QUOTE
...I'm going to presume we have Critias to thank for Mystic Adepts being the new master race.

I had nothing to really do with Mystic Adepts in particular, but thanks for the sideways attack. My entire contributions to the magic chapter dealt with me peering over the actual contracted writer's shoulder (who graciously let me) and brainstorming with him about re-structuring some power point costs, along with me coming up with the idea for every Mentor Spirit to offer an Adept/General boost instead of only spellcasting/summoning stuff (and then me sending in playtest notes about some drain codes, but most of those didn't seem to change anything).

So, uh, if you really think Combat and Non-Combat skills having the same Improved Ability cost is what's got Mystic Adepts overpowered, or if you dislike the general idea behind the new Mentor Spirit bonuses (not the specifics, I didn't write those)...then...well, sure. Keep running your mouth, you're absolutely right, and those broken-ass Mystic Adepts are all my fault. But since I know, and you know, and everyone knows that's not really what's wrong with Mystic Adepts (and since I was one of the first people speaking up backstage, during errata compilation, and helping to agree on a new, higher, cost for Mystic Adepts to buy their Power Points)...maybe you shouldn't "presume" so much, huh?

QUOTE
This was msotly venting, but there it is.

Yeah. There it is.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Aug 5 2013, 12:23 PM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



A Few Points:

1)Naming names probably wasn't appropriate. I do apologize for that

2)You wrote Way of the Adept Critias, your the biggest cheerleader for adepts around here I know of. That in and of itself isn't anything negative. However I don't feel presuming we had you to thank for the across the board increase in adept power level, for example Qi Focus, Adept Mentor Spirit benefits, and some extent yes mystic adepts was a completely out of left field theory. So if i was inaccurate there, you know what? I apologize again.

3) Honestly, i'm tired of hearing about shoulda' coulda' woulda', i'm tired of hearing about playtest, or beta, or when the pregens were drawn up. All i know about the design process I have to pull out of the book to my right and the PDF on my computer. I'm sure somewhere in design there was a thing of perfect beauty where gear and ware prices weren't all over the place, the wireless rules made sense, and all the classes were roughly close in power level. Somewhere along the line though it rattled apart. And what I have in front of me feels like a rush job. I don't hold the writers responsible for that, although I do get tired about when we get moral outrage when problems do get pointed out. I don't even hold the company responsible for that, it's the year that all these big things are happening for SR, not one but two electronic games, of course they wanted to get in on that pot. But damn if Fifth isn't more painful for how close of a hit it is. So when you come in here offended and tell me how your making arguments for an errata to something that's sane? Honestly I don't particularly care, because the problem is essentially already mine to mend or ignore. The only reason I have to care at all about the Rules as Written, or the Rules as Intentended, or the Rules as Conceptualized, or the Rules as Playtested, is because I'd like to be involved in the living campaign, in whatever capacity, and I need to figure out how to do that without being upstaged every table by magic users.


4) If CGL had sold me a beta product I would have been ecstatic, it worked for the mechwarrior RPG guys, it worked for the Fantasy Flight guys, for some reason that's just not SR CGL's style, more's the pity. Because a huge amount of stuff that's in errata should have been caught at some stage of the process, and probably a huge amount of stuff that in my opinion (not that that's worth much) should be addressed probably won't be addressed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Critias
post Aug 5 2013, 12:37 PM
Post #9


Freelance Elf
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 7,324
Joined: 30-September 04
From: Texas
Member No.: 6,714



If you don't want to hear about the design process, then maybe you shouldn't make wild claims about what you imagine happened during design process, so that the people you're misattributing positions to don't feel obligated to try and set the record straight.

The only reason I brought up the errata thing was to try and show you you that I was advocating for less, not more, powerful Mystic Adepts. The only reason I mentioned -- again -- that the details of our behind-the-scenes arguments are under NDA is because you specifically talked about whether anyone was advocating for cybered characters during the design process.

Look at my post count lately, man. Look at how quiet I've been on various forums lately, and how not-indignant I've been about every grouse and complaint about the system. The only "moral outrage" I brought into this thread was in very specific response to untrue things you said. It's not someone pointing out problems that dragged me out of the woodwork, it was very specifically the things you claimed that simply weren't true. I like people pointing out problems with the system (for all that what I like matters, as a freelancer). What I don't like, and what I won't sit quietly for, is people claiming I've done (or not done) things.

It's like this: If you walk up to a random guy on the street and loudly proclaim to all and sundry that he's a vegan and a PETA-nut terrorist who wants to kill everyone that eats meat, you don't really keep your right to be all "UGH, I don't care what foods you like!" when he tries to show you the ham sandwich in his lunch box or mention the eggs and bacon he had for breakfast, man. You broached the subject. You made the claim. You don't get to then get upset about them taking the time to argue with you over it.

You don't get to admit you were making wild and inaccurate claims, and apologize for those wildly inaccurate claims being personal, and then also chastise someone for daring to refute those personal and wildly inaccurate claims, dude. That's not how human beings are supposed to talk to each other, and that's not how apologies work.

And, just to respond to (4) up there? Whether you want to hear it or not, some of us were also strongly arguing for exactly that; a beta-release pdf to dramatically widen our playtester pool (in a way), and test the waters. For what it's worth, it's my understanding that the reticence to do so has to do with licensing issues and permission from Topps (not Catalyst decision makers, but the corporate-types higher up the ladder). And there was a huge amount of stuff caught during playtest and proofing, but not every playtest note or proofing comment got acted upon. I don't know why, but I, specifically and personally, know of notes that were sent in and things that weren't fixed. Not every complaint/comment gets addressed, basically.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Aug 5 2013, 12:41 PM
Post #10


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



Judging by how well Way of the Adept is selling, people would probably be less outraged if Critias had anything to do with writing the Mys-Ad.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eratosthenes
post Aug 5 2013, 12:52 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 3-April 10
Member No.: 18,409



QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 5 2013, 08:37 AM) *
If you don't want to hear about the design process, then maybe you shouldn't make wild claims about what you imagine happened during design process, so that the people you're misattributing positions to don't feel obligated to try and set the record straight.
...


Epic! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I especially liked the lunchbox analogy!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Wakshaani
post Aug 5 2013, 01:42 PM
Post #12


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,556
Joined: 24-May 03
Member No.: 4,629



Certain things are better as gear. Certain things are better as magic. Certain things are better as cyber. It's almost as if you were given a choice.

(What's better as cyber? Off the top of my head, internal air tanks, cyber-spurs, cyber-limbs, skeletons/boonefoo, anything that interacts with the Matrix actively.)
(What's better as magic? Reactions, boosting skill pools, sneakiness.)
(What's better as gear? Most senses, guns, some other weapons.)

As for the idea that people working on a cyberpunk game don't like cyber... can't help you. Can't wrap my head around the concept of someone being a Shadowrun fan for a decade plus, working hard, becomming a professional writer, being hired to work on a game that they love, who then goes, "Ewwww, cybernetics!"

You're on your own, there.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ElFenrir
post Aug 5 2013, 02:23 PM
Post #13


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,168
Joined: 15-April 05
From: Helsinki, Finland
Member No.: 7,337



QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 5 2013, 08:42 AM) *
Certain things are better as gear. Certain things are better as magic. Certain things are better as cyber. It's almost as if you were given a choice.

(What's better as cyber? Off the top of my head, internal air tanks, cyber-spurs, cyber-limbs, skeletons/boonefoo, anything that interacts with the Matrix actively.)
(What's better as magic? Reactions, boosting skill pools, sneakiness.)
(What's better as gear? Most senses, guns, some other weapons.)

As for the idea that people working on a cyberpunk game don't like cyber... can't help you. Can't wrap my head around the concept of someone being a Shadowrun fan for a decade plus, working hard, becomming a professional writer, being hired to work on a game that they love, who then goes, "Ewwww, cybernetics!"

You're on your own, there.



Sams are tankier as well, over Adepts. While Mystic Armor is nice for astral style attacks, it's not the cheapest thing to stack; sams can, for cheap, stack Bone Lacing and then Dermal Plating and Orthoskin for excellent levels of protection. (A sam can start off with Aluminum Bone Lacing for +2 Armor/Damage Resistance, and then Orthoskin or Dermal Plating for another 3 right off the bat, giving them 5 points of natural armor WITHOUT armor, as well as an extra 2 dice to roll to resist damage. An adept would have to pay 2.5 points for that much Mystic Armor and they don't even get the 2 bonus Damage Resist dice for that.) If a sam wants, he can wander around with Titanium Bone Lacing and Orthoskin 6 for 9 armor and +3 dice of damage resistance buck naked down the street.

[Personally I think what it comes down to is when Favorite Thing™ ends up gravitated to another archetype for it's Super-Best-100% Optimized™ version people get iffy, even if the other versions are perfect awesome, viable, and everything, but they aren't The Best At It™. Like Adepts recently, because a human adept can 'only' hit as hard as an assault rifle now out of the gate-mind you, while still having large arrays of skills-and a sam can hit 2 points higher, so of course unarmed adepts are RUINED FOREVER. So in SR4, with Sams being the old Die Pool Kings(okay, or Bio-Adepts who basically took both sides, but that was a little out of hand), and now Sams seem more of the 'Swiss Army Knives' of arsekicking with Adepts being able to push above them in raw die pools, now Cyber is completely underpowered. Now AGAIN, I feel it has issues, and it sucks that stuff from the High High High ups didn't work out for the beta-my own houserules include some cheaper cyber and reworking of the Wireless bonuses-but I don't think it's All Useless and Pointless by far. Just needed some numbers tweaking and a little Wireless bonus re-jigging; mostly to give the cyber it's base bonuses as it's always had-ie; smartlinks are +2 dice and Free Action clip changes and everything ran cold, and then make the new bonuses *real bonuses*-ie, run your smartlink hot and get a halved penalty for called shots and have a rangefinder included. That way it still feels like meaningful choice without having the cyber itself 'nerfed.']
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shortstraw
post Aug 5 2013, 02:31 PM
Post #14


Running Target
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,003
Joined: 3-May 11
From: Brisbane Australia
Member No.: 29,391



Besides if you piss Critias off he might really give you something to complain about when it comes to write Way of the Adept 2: Adept Harder.

p.s give him something to complain about.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Elfenlied
post Aug 5 2013, 02:59 PM
Post #15


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 973
Joined: 8-January 10
Member No.: 18,018



Personally, I don't think Sams were hit particularly hard in comparison to other archetypes:
Mages: Overall Drain went up, combat spells lost a lot of their potency (Direct spells lost their base damage, and even a F6 Lightning Bolt is roughly the same as a Predator with SnS) and will need obscene Force to match most rifle sized guns in damage. Focus addiction threshold got halved.
Adepts: Their three previously strongest facets (Social, Throwing and Unarmed) got nerfed/removed, so Ware is now the obvious choice for characters focusing on those fields. Noncombat improved skill doubled in price. In fact, the only real buff they got over mundanes is their cheap initiative enhancement, and the vocal minority on this forums whines about it constantly.
Hackers: Got removed...
Deckers: Require a much steeper investment over SR4 hackers, both in attributes and money. The popular "Combat hacker" archetype is a lot harder to do in SR5, and deckers in general don't combine as well with other concepts as hackers did in SR4.
Riggers: Can't say much about them at this point, since they pretty much require Splatbook support.
Faces: See Adept for details. Basically, play a mundane Elf with Pheromones in a short term campaign or an Adept who will eventually get Pheromones in a long term campaign. Losing Emotionsoft is arguably a nerf, but those things were stupid anyway.

So, where does this leave the Streetsam? Let's see: Some Ware prices went up (e.g. Wired), whereas others stayed more or less the same (Synapse is 5k more per Rating than SR4) or were drastically reduced in cost (Orthoskin, Bone Density Augmentation). Starting money got increased drastically. Therefore, it is possible to make a formidable, tough Streetsam (see my other thread on details). While they may no longer start at 90% of their full build effectiveness like they did in SR4 (barring the 4th pass, they could painlessly start with a wide, versatile array of ware without sacrificing core items), they now have a realistic shot at higher grade ware. Once the pay table gets hopefully adjusted and Streetsams have real ware progress to look forward to, I expect Streetsam outrage to slowly die down (the current payscale is a joke).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Aug 5 2013, 03:20 PM
Post #16


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE
(What's better as cyber? Off the top of my head, internal air tanks, cyber-spurs, cyber-limbs, skeletons/boonefoo, anything that interacts with the Matrix actively.)

If by 'better' you mean 'is a for all intents and purposes unresisted attack away from being destroyed' (this includes internal air tanks because reasons) ... sams can soak better, but that's about it. Riggers need the VCR, and it does some rather weird things, like make a super sports car out of the 30-miles-per-hour-max Americar (or propel a T-bird to alpha centauri at 1.2 light speed), but they have little in the way of defense against spiders, either. Basically, a building in SR4 needs only a mop up team, a bunch of spiders, and someone to deal with teh occasional awakened and intruding hackers. The spiders brick the hell out of mundane intruders and the mop-up team collects their limb bodies.Great rules design, CGL.

While his tone and all the accusations he threw around were wrong and bad form, at the core, Lurker's right. In SR5, play mundanes with bioware and soak-cyber, or Awakened. Unless you houserule the Matrix to not be an instant win against non-hacker mundanes with cyberware.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DWC
post Aug 5 2013, 03:27 PM
Post #17


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Fairfax, VA
Member No.: 13,526



Can I point out that back in 4th, the thing Adepts were best at was hacking, though the increased cost of Improved Ability for Technical Skills hurts them. Then again, the higher skill caps mean that you can take even more Improved Ability.

However, on the whole, the cybered-up street samurai is on his way to obsolescence. Posthuman Paragons (my made up title for the augmentation splatbook) will probably skew this, but right now throwback cyberlimbs crammed with armor and enhancements combined with bone density aug, and orthoskin, and low grade synaptics seem like the way forward.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Grinder
post Aug 5 2013, 04:23 PM
Post #18


Great, I'm a Dragon...
*********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 6,699
Joined: 8-October 03
From: North Germany
Member No.: 5,698



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 5 2013, 01:01 PM) *
Really that's all there is to it. I'm trying to rebuild my character tonight for missions and it's proving to be an absolutely frustrating experience. Ware prices tripled or more from 4th edition, wireless rules make ware more vulnerable if you want to get fourth edition performance out of it. All sorts of other nitpicks. It costs for example 120 times as much to get a rating 3 Ultrasound sensor as an implant then it does as a handheld device.


+1.

I decided to stick with SR4.5 unless SR5.5 comes out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Grinder
post Aug 5 2013, 04:24 PM
Post #19


Great, I'm a Dragon...
*********

Group: Retired Admins
Posts: 6,699
Joined: 8-October 03
From: North Germany
Member No.: 5,698



QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 5 2013, 01:44 PM) *
I can assure you, that was very much not the case. It's terribly frustrating to hear someone say that, when those backstage discussions are still under NDA and I cannot tell you, personally, just how very wrong you are. If you guys knew how hard some of us had to fight to get the compromise prices we did, and if you knew what some of these prices almost were...*sigh*


'ware prices were planned to be even higher? What the fuck?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eratosthenes
post Aug 5 2013, 04:39 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 356
Joined: 3-April 10
Member No.: 18,409



QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 5 2013, 12:24 PM) *
'ware prices were planned to be even higher? What the fuck?


I'm assuming it was an attempt to make starting characters slightly less powerful, so that street sams had something to work towards (i.e., more 'ware). SR4A you could pretty-much build your complete Sam package at char gen, and then post-chargen was spent maxing skills/attribs, and picking up side abilities.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Elfenlied
post Aug 5 2013, 04:41 PM
Post #21


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 973
Joined: 8-January 10
Member No.: 18,018



QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Aug 5 2013, 05:39 PM) *
SR4A you could pretty-much build your complete Sam package at char gen, and then post-chargen was spent maxing skills/attribs, and picking up side abilities.


That is my impression as well. Getting weaned off it is understandably hard.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stahlseele
post Aug 5 2013, 04:45 PM
Post #22


The ShadowComedian
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 14,516
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Hamburg, AGS
Member No.: 13,525



QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Aug 5 2013, 06:39 PM) *
I'm assuming it was an attempt to make starting characters slightly less powerful, so that street sams had something to work towards (i.e., more 'ware). SR4A you could pretty-much build your complete Sam package at char gen, and then post-chargen was spent maxing skills/attribs, and picking up side abilities.

So where is the Difference there for Awakened Characters who specialize in Char-Gen and then DON'T diversify in game because they need their precious karma for their specialization to grow?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DWC
post Aug 5 2013, 05:02 PM
Post #23


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 3-October 07
From: Fairfax, VA
Member No.: 13,526



QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Aug 5 2013, 12:41 PM) *
That is my impression as well. Getting weaned off it is understandably hard.


Then your impression was incorrect. Having played a cybered-up combat monster through the last 3 seasons of Missions, he continued to get more and more lethal and resilient as the campaign went on by picking up incremental upgrades in his cyberware and bioware, adding genetech, and adding nanoware. The character could start out powerful relative to swarms of incompetent opposition and still have a huge amount of room to grow.

With the grossly inflated costs of damn near everything that isn't damage soaking, those incremental upgrades are going to be much harder for characters to come by, and they start at a much lower baseline of competency. Reduce the y-intercept and reduce the slope and the only possible end result is a much lower y-value at every positive x-value on the line.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd October 2020 - 12:08 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.