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> Poor Man's Cyberdeck, or how to get something that can do basic matrix actions cheaply
The Masked Ferre...
post Aug 5 2013, 05:57 PM
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According to the rules for rigger command consoles, they can run a number of programs equal to their rating (pg. 267). It is possible to create a very cheap deck (13,500k nuyen) for use by a starting runner, within the 5th edition rules. Ending stats (ASDF) are 1136 with 2 programs (not including Virtual Machine). For a slightly more powerful deck (21,500k nuyen), you can get a 1146 with 3 programs (not including Virtual Machine).
You need to buy a RCC, a high end comlink, and a number of Programs. You need to slave the RCC to the Commlink (ups the firewall to the Commlink’s rating) and run the programs (Decryption [+1 Attack] and Stealth [+1 Sleaze]) to get the Attack and Sleaze ratings.

Base machine: 1136 w/2 Programs runnable for 13,500
8,000 - Radio Shack Remote Controller (0033 w/2 Programs runnable)
5,000 – Transys Avalon Commlink (0066) [as the Master Device]
0,250 - Decryption [+1 Attack]
0,250 - Stealth [+1 Sleaze]

Slightly Better: 1146 w/3 Programs runnable for 21,500
16,000 – Essy Motors Drone Master (0044 w/3 Programs runnable)
05,000 – Transys Avalon Commlink (0066) [as the Master Device]
00,250 - Decryption [+1 Attack]
00,250 - Stealth [+1 Sleaze]

I have used the first one in an actual run (not matrix heavy). It works fine for Matrix overwatch (if you have at least 12 dice for Matrix Perception, guarantee 3 hits to see hidden icons.) It should work fine for Matrix Defense. You can also play distraction – add an Exploit program, and you can have a limit of 3 for Hacking on the Fly to get marks.
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HugeC
post Aug 5 2013, 06:38 PM
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Does adding +1 Attack to something without an Attack rating do anything?

For a magical analog, imagine casting Increase Strength on a rock. Can the rock carry something now?
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Eratosthenes
post Aug 5 2013, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (HugeC @ Aug 5 2013, 02:38 PM) *
Does adding +1 Attack to something without an Attack rating do anything?

For a magical analog, imagine casting Increase Strength on a rock. Can the rock carry something now?


This. Commlinks aren't 0 Attack, they don't have an Attack at all IIRC.
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The Masked Ferre...
post Aug 5 2013, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE (HugeC @ Aug 5 2013, 02:38 PM) *
Does adding +1 Attack to something without an Attack rating do anything?

For a magical analog, imagine casting Increase Strength on a rock. Can the rock carry something now?


Well, no, the rock could not carry something. In the case of the RCC, the RCC itself cannot attack anything. However, the character can now use that +1 Attack stat to make attacks. Admittedly, they are terrible attacks. But the software you can run on a RCC allows that stat to be there. Effectively, the RCC is emulating an Attack stat with software. Computers do things like that all the time.

QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Aug 5 2013, 01:44 PM) *
This. Commlinks aren't 0 Attack, they don't have an Attack at all IIRC.


Well, it's not the commlink that gets the stat. It is the Rigger Command Console, which is intended for offensive use. It is the RCC that can run the programs, and I would argue that lack of a stat = 0 in that stat, unless the rules specifically state that you do not have the stat (as the book states for Magic and Resonance).
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Ixal
post Aug 5 2013, 07:15 PM
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Considering the story I wouldn't allow it.
The new Comlinks and protocols mean that you need extra hardware modifications to do anything illegal in the Matrix without being detected and booted immediately. Its not just a matter of running a program any more.
If anyone tried to hack with a normal Comlink without Deck modifications GOD would imo home in immediately.
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HugeC
post Aug 5 2013, 07:24 PM
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From pg. 226: "Most devices (including commlinks) have only two Matrix attributes: Data Processing and Firewall. Decks and hosts have all four, including Attack and Sleaze."

I guess the poor man has to get an Erika MCD-1 for 49.5k nuyen.

Personally, I dislike this rule. Certain actions, like kicking an intruder off your commlink or RCC, ought to be possible without rebooting the thing, IMHO, but since those devices don't have Attack it can't be done.

It's not clear to me how slaving works either. Like, right now I am building a character that's a decker with a control rig implant. I can certainly slave an RCC to my deck. I could slave drones to my deck, but it's not clear whether I could slave them to the RCC that is also slaved to my deck, nor whether I'd get the RCC's noise reduction / sharing in that case.

According to P. 268, a spider can slave his RCC to a host, and then use the RCC to command drones that are also slaved to the host (presumably gaining the benefit of the RCC's sharing and noise reduction). It's not clear whether you could do the same thing with a deck.
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Elfenlied
post Aug 5 2013, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (Ixal @ Aug 5 2013, 07:15 PM) *
Considering the story I wouldn't allow it.


With all due respect, the new story is a thinly veiled excuse to get cyberdecks back in order to appease fans of older editions. The developments in such a short timespan make about as much sense as the wireless bonuses.
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The Masked Ferre...
post Aug 5 2013, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Ixal @ Aug 5 2013, 03:15 PM) *
Considering the story I wouldn't allow it.
The new Comlinks and protocols mean that you need extra hardware modifications to do anything illegal in the Matrix without being detected and booted immediately. Its not just a matter of running a program any more.
If anyone tried to hack with a normal Comlink without Deck modifications GOD would imo home in immediately.


In this case, you are not hacking with the comlink. You are hacking with the RCC.
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 5 2013, 08:02 PM
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I have a sneaking suspcion based on missions at least that a character with high edge and strong skills (so human) could get by with a high rating comlink until they had a chance to steal a deck. Sure you won't be running any of those snazzy programs but to be honest they are not all that great for the costs involved (of the hardware to run them). Don't get me wrong, you'd need to have high enough skills and edge to get two marks in one go when you make your attempts, but after that you are all set. It would allow you to build a more rounded character, the combat hacker of old.
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The Masked Ferre...
post Aug 5 2013, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 5 2013, 04:02 PM) *
I have a sneaking suspcion based on missions at least that a character with high edge and strong skills (so human) could get by with a high rating comlink until they had a chance to steal a deck. Sure you won't be running any of those snazzy programs but to be honest they are not all that great for the costs involved (of the hardware to run them). Don't get me wrong, you'd need to have high enough skills and edge to get two marks in one go when you make your attempts, but after that you are all set. It would allow you to build a more rounded character, the combat hacker of old.


The problem is that the Attack and Sleaze stats serve as the limits. It would be very... edge expensive to hack without them.
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 5 2013, 08:16 PM
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Mundane human starts with edge 5 minimum. Hacking of 6, Logic of 8 (Cerebral boosters) specilizations and code slinger mean you have someone who can probably get most of the "big hacks" done to get the marks in place and after that unless you are trying to crash stuff you are mostly on data processing anyway. I'm not pretending it's a desirable state to stay in, but it does make a combat decker feasable.

And then when you pry that better cyberdeck out of your enemies cold dead fingers you'll feel like you've made a major upgrade.
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The Masked Ferre...
post Aug 5 2013, 08:24 PM
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to have a logic of 8, you are looking at needing at least 60k nuyen (unless you also bought the Extraordinary Attribute (Logic), which would be 30k or so). Why not just buy a real deck if you have that high a priority for NuYen?

As to your example, the only time I managed to get the Marks with the Poor Man's Cyberdeck was when I edged the roll. However, I managed to make a human with an edge of only 2. Go figure.
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Eratosthenes
post Aug 5 2013, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 5 2013, 04:02 PM) *
I have a sneaking suspcion based on missions at least that a character with high edge and strong skills (so human) could get by with a high rating comlink until they had a chance to steal a deck. Sure you won't be running any of those snazzy programs but to be honest they are not all that great for the costs involved (of the hardware to run them). Don't get me wrong, you'd need to have high enough skills and edge to get two marks in one go when you make your attempts, but after that you are all set. It would allow you to build a more rounded character, the combat hacker of old.


That would be tantamount to saying that you can use Edge to shoot someone with a Panther Assault Cannon...when all you are carrying is a pocketknife. No matter how lucky you are, you should/could not hack a system without a computer (i.e. Deck) that has Sleaze or Attack values.

I'm not too worried about the changes. Honestly, SR4A felt like the wild west of wireless. I've not entirely parsed the new rules, but it does feel more controlled, which I suspect is just how the corps want it.

That, and it does feel more old school (hosts, decks, etc.)
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 5 2013, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Aug 5 2013, 02:56 PM) *
That would be tantamount to saying that you can use Edge to shoot someone with a Panther Assault Cannon...when all you are carrying is a pocketknife. No matter how lucky you are, you should/could not hack a system without a computer (i.e. Deck) that has Sleaze or Attack values.


More like it's tantamount to saying I can pick a lock with a bobby pin, or kill someone with a pair of scisorrs. It's nowhere near the ideal tool for the job and you wouldn't want to make a career out of it but it's exactly what edge is for under the limit system and it's exactly the sort of thing that does happen on occasion, both in real life and in the media the game emulates.

Unfotuntunately while at the same time they said they wanted to make skills and attributes more valuable in 5th they shackled people with hideously expensive cyberdecks. I've found a way around that,

Back in first ed we could do it bare skill if we had to, so get off my lawn.


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The Masked Ferre...
post Aug 5 2013, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 5 2013, 04:08 PM) *
Back in first ed we could do it bare skill if we had to, so get off my lawn.


LOL
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Chance359
post Aug 5 2013, 09:36 PM
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Don't forget you cane grandpa.

back to the topic at hand, I like the idea of a cheaper deck. Mostly because I want to run a sleaze program for my Street Sam.
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Moirdryd
post Aug 5 2013, 10:28 PM
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There is nothing saying you can't Hack with a Commlink if you're using Edge to do it. You're just going to be very disadvantaged against someone with a Deck or the Host systems, because you're going to get at the very most 8 rolls (max possible edge) before you're tapped out. Sure I would allow the attack +1 program to let an RCC throw out attacks but again they're going to be weak.

Hacking on pure skill is possible (with edge) but difficult lacking the right tools for the job.
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