[X] My Assistant

[Shinobi Killfist]

Magic 6 isn't quite the bombshell it was in SR4 where you could overcast F10 stunbolts and drop trolls

True but just like SR4 advancing past magic 6 is not the best choice. It handles the force of your spells fairly well and mostly is just giving you dice. Ally spirits are not in yet, but in SR4 a foce 5 ally base cost is 40 maybe another 20 might be spent on extras. Total cost 60, going from 6 to 8 magic would cost 65 karma, one gets you 5 dice the other gets you 2. Even in most background count situations you are at worst breaking even with dice. Power focus is now karma x6 for basically the same karma cost to go from 6 to 7 magic you can get a rating 6 power focus. Even assuming they errata it to just being a dice pool modifier, 6 dice to 1 dice isn't even a choice. Unless all of your dice pool modifiers are already maxed out raising your magic is a suckers bet.

[kerbarian]

splitting the pool wasn't dated it was a balanced and elegant method to create a mage capable of everything. Now personally I would have made it 2 separate magic attributes, but oh well.

That gives me an idea -- the special attribute points of SR5 offer a fairly elegant solution to this. If you're a mystic adept, you have to spend special attribute points to get power points during chargen, and if you want you can trade some of your starting Magic attribute for more power points.

That means if you want to be a mystic adept who's strong at being both a magician and an adept, you'll have to spend a higher priority on race, which I think is actually a good way to balance it. It's probably too large of a change to be considered for errata, though.

[Shinobi Killfist]

That gives me an idea -- the special attribute points of SR5 offer a fairly elegant solution to this. If you're a mystic adept, you have to spend special attribute points to get power points during chargen, and if you want you can trade some of your starting Magic attribute for more power points.

That means if you want to be a mystic adept who's strong at being both a magician and an adept, you'll have to spend a higher priority on race, which I think is actually a good way to balance it. It's probably too large of a change to be considered for errata, though.

That is what I am currently looking at for my house rule, though I'd have 2 totally separate magic attributes which you divide your starting magic between which would initiate and advance separate. But you could use your special attributes to boost the 2 attributes, neither could raise above 6 at char gen without exceptional attribute(and it would apply to either adept or mage magic attribute not both) Allows higher starting total magic from 4e, and wold advance a bit quicker than 4e. And it would also allow full adpes with a inkling of mage as opposed to full mages with X amount of adept as the only method.

[Dyspeptic]

None of these are "my rules" These were all worked up by the SR5 writers and design team. There's been a lot of discussion behind the scenes, and while I'm cautioning that none of this is final for SR5 in general, and that the final errata may change things up... Right now, these are all what is planned to go into the Errata and FAQ.

Bull

Clarification accepted. The "Missions Hotpatch" nature of the document caused me to interpret it as essentially a decree by fiat. Mea culpa.

That said, I stand by the rest of my points. The introduction of an effectively setting-wide BC with no way of mitigating it short of buying Home Ground (Chicago CZ) (Astral Acclimitization) is... problematic in my opinion.

I also would request a clarification on the Mystic Adept power point issue. I'm ok with additional power point not being granted automatically with Magic increase, but they need to be purchaseable with additional Karma as they are during chargen.

[Bull]

Clarification accepted. The "Missions Hotpatch" nature of the document caused me to interpret it as essentially a decree by fiat. Mea culpa.

Yeah, I cherry picked our Errata stuff and pushed it through ahead of schedule specifically for Missions so that we could release it in time for Gen Con, since we'll have a few hundred new characters been made before the show and at the show. This was the stuff that I felt we HAD to have at least a beta test version of the errata. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I also would request a clarification on the Mystic Adept power point issue. I'm ok with additional power point not being granted automatically with Magic increase, but they need to be purchaseable with additional Karma as they are during chargen.

They are, sort of. by doing an initiation and taking the Power Point instead of your metamagic power. It just emans that each additional point is progressivly more expensive.

Bull

[Lynchmob]

Also i seriously hope mystic adept errata doesn't stay final, only way to get power points being taking them instead of metamagic is just stupid as heck.

Am I misreading how initiation works for regular adepts? I was under the impression that they have to choose between metamagic or a powerpoint at initiation. If that's the case why should Mystic Adepts be allowed easier access to power points than dedicated adepts? There might be a blurb I missed somewhere offering traditional adepts access to powerpoints without initiation.

[RHat]

That is what I am currently looking at for my house rule, though I'd have 2 totally separate magic attributes which you divide your starting magic between which would initiate and advance separate. But you could use your special attributes to boost the 2 attributes, neither could raise above 6 at char gen without exceptional attribute(and it would apply to either adept or mage magic attribute not both) Allows higher starting total magic from 4e, and wold advance a bit quicker than 4e. And it would also allow full adpes with a inkling of mage as opposed to full mages with X amount of adept as the only method.

The problem is that 3/2 is not as valuable as 5 Magic - so, splitting from a total really doesn't work. One option, though, would be to set Mystic Adepts at something like 2/2 (or just 4 points to split as they like) for C, 3/3 (or 6 points to split as they like) for B, and 4/4 or 5/5 (or either 8 or 10 points to split as they like) for A. 6/6 would be attainable if you took a Metatype selction offering enough Special Attribute Points.

[RHat]

Am I misreading how initiation works for regular adepts? I was under the impression that they have to choose between metamagic or a powerpoint at initiation. If that's the case why should Mystic Adepts be allowed easier access to power points than dedicated adepts? There might be a blurb I missed somewhere offering traditional adepts access to powerpoints without initiation.

PhysAds get them automatically upon raising Magic, as well, while MystAds do not under the hot patch.

[Bull]

PhysAds get them automatically upon raising Magic, as well, while MystAds do not under the hot patch.

Correct.

[Sengir]

Used Cyberware may be purchased during character creation.

Thank god

[Lynchmob]

Ok so I'm an adept my magic is 6 and I initiate and take the extra power point. I have a total of 7 power points. I then spend my karma to increase my magic to 7, I get an extra power point so I have 8 total? Is this the intended mechanic and it was just a little unclear or am I a blind idiot who can't rtfm? The only rules I could see about power points were at the character creation section and then in the magic chapter right before they list the adept powers. In the character creation section it states that adepts get power points equal to their magic attribute and that mystic adepts must pay 2 (now 5) karma per point. pgs 68 and 71. On page 69 when breaking down the different types of awakened it states that adepts get power points equal to their magic. On page 308 in the magic section it again says you get power points equal to your magic but specifies at character creation. Under initiation bonuses it lists the increased maximum to magic and lists power point as an option instead of metamagic I just didn't see anything explicitly stating that increasing magic after character gen gets you an additional power point. Again I might have totally missed it somewhere.

[Bull]

Pure Adepts: Get Magic Rating = Power Points inlcuding magic points bought after chargen, plus can take extra Power Points instead of initiation. So an Initate Grade 1 who took the Power Point with 7 Magic ends up with 8 Power Points.

Mystic Adepts: Do not automatically get any Power Points. At Chargen they may purchase them for 5 karma each. After Chargen, the only way they get them is to initiate and take the power point.

[Lynchmob]

Awesome thanks for unfragging me. You rock.

[Maelwys]

Powers can be turned on and off. Always have been. Should have been clarified in the new book though. Otherwise Adepts can NEVER go through wards.

Uh. Except for astral perception, none of the adept's powers make them astrally active. Not astrally active, means no problem going through wards. Unless I've missed something in the various editions.

You might as well be saying that a magician could never go through a ward because he could never turn off his magic.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The problem is that 3/2 is not as valuable as 5 Magic - so, splitting from a total really doesn't work. One option, though, would be to set Mystic Adepts at something like 2/2 (or just 4 points to split as they like) for C, 3/3 (or 6 points to split as they like) for B, and 4/4 or 5/5 (or either 8 or 10 points to split as they like) for A. 6/6 would be attainable if you took a Metatype selction offering enough Special Attribute Points.

Sure but magic A human c could be 5/6 which is a hell of a lot more valuable than magic 6 on its own. Troll A magic B would be 5/4 or 6/3 which is pretty damn solid. And while 3/3 is not as valuable as 6, 5/1 was pretty close. To me this seems more balanced at the get go and more balanced as you advance. I haven't had time to play test it yet, so it could totally suck, but I'm liking it on paper.

[RHat]

Sure but magic A human c could be 5/6 which is a hell of a lot more valuable than magic 6 on its own. Troll A magic B would be 5/4 or 6/3 which is pretty damn solid. And while 3/3 is not as valuable as 6, 5/1 was pretty close. To me this seems more balanced at the get go and more balanced as you advance. I haven't had time to play test it yet, so it could totally suck, but I'm liking it on paper.

Well, if you're spending all your resources from 2 different priorities, of course the combination is going to be potent. Capping it somehow does make sense, I suppose, but a straight split from 6 is just not the way to do it.

[Tzeentch]

I think the mystic adept nerf is a bit too kneejerk. I hope that the con lets you get some feedback on the changes (e.g. if people even bother with them and aspected magicians).

[HugeC]

Mystic Adepts: Do not automatically get any Power Points. At Chargen they may purchase them for 5 karma each. After Chargen, the only way they get them is to initiate and take the power point.

This forces all mystads to blow all 25 freebie karma plus 5 from negative qualities on power points at chargen.

The primary topic of conversation at mystic adept group initiations will be, "So what's your unique and special flaw?"

I'd urge you guys to consider a rule that works both during and after chargen.

[Elfenlied]

I think the mystic adept nerf is a bit too kneejerk. I hope that the con lets you get some feedback on the changes (e.g. if people even bother with them and aspected magicians).

Yeah, I bet the majority of those complaining about MysAds have neither played them nor DMed for one in their group. If they did, they would realize how thinspread and diluted most of them are. 6/6 Magic in theory, sure, but you're not gonna make the most of it with the lack of skills, attributes and cash.

[Vlagrate]

This forces all mystads to blow all 25 freebie karma plus 5 from negative qualities on power points at chargen.

The primary topic of conversation at mystic adept group initiations will be, "So what's your unique and special flaw?"

I'd urge you guys to consider a rule that works both during and after chargen.

Houserule:
Mystic adepts may buy Power Points for 5 karma each, both during and after character generation, with a maximum equal to their Magic Rating + # of PP Metamagics

Ex: Mystic Adept with magic 6 doesn't want to blow any karma for PP. Their PP maximum is 6 (their magic).
They may spend up to 30 karma, in increments of 5, during downtime for PP. They may also initiate and select a metamagic.
If they select the Power Point metamagic, their maximum Power Point reserve increases by 1 (to 7) and they get 1 PP [1 of 7]
If they select any other metamagic, their Power Point maximum remains at 6 [0 of 6]

This should curb any problems of not maxing out your PP during character generation. Thoughts?


As for the concerns that mystic adepts cannot gain PP through anything other than initiation: that's a fair cost.
The ability to purchase PP and use Qi foci is balanced out by the differences between mages and mysads, so why should a mysad gain free power points from a bump in magic when the mage pays the same cost to bump magic but has no option of gaining a PP?
Having to pay an additional cost is the price mysads pay for being able to gain PP in the first place.
As such, it's cheaper for everyone to invest in foci rather than initiate for power points or bump magic (mages and adepts included)
Power focus = 6*force
Qi focus = 2*force
Initiating for PP costs 13 karma, while a Qi focus granting the equivalent of 1PP costs 8 karma.

[Bull]

Uh. Except for astral perception, none of the adept's powers make them astrally active. Not astrally active, means no problem going through wards. Unless I've missed something in the various editions.

You might as well be saying that a magician could never go through a ward because he could never turn off his magic.

No, you're right. I got my ward rules mixed up. I have 5 Editions, 3 editions worth of playtested rules, and a dozen GMs worth of house rules kicking around in my brainpan somewhere. When I'm discussing rules off the cuff (Espeically when I'm away from my books like I was for part of yesterday), I switch things up on occasion. My apologies.

But, while using an adept power, Adepts are still magically active (Just not astrally active or dual natured). And they can opt to "turn off" their abilities by not using them. This has long been the case, otherwise Adepts never could have ridden a suborbital without popping like a grape in older editions. So long as an adept doesn't use his powers in a Background Count, he takes no BGC penalties (and takes no damage in a Void or Flux).

Bull

[tete]

While I appreciate the errata the official Chicago bit makes me wonder. We aren't trying to go more GM vs PC are we? I know its Chicago but it would seem to let my players be less awesome. To paraphrase Steve Darington a GMs job is to make an awesome game by allowing their players to be awesome. There are a few places in 5e that seem to try to make my players characters less awesome. Not an accusation more looking for a clarification (IE, yes we still want your characters to be awesome, Chicago its just a bit more challenging, or something like that).

[ElFenrir]

I was always under the impression(as a player and a GM of home games) that Chicago doesn't like you at all. If you're a mage, it doesn't like you because it's teeming with BGC. If you're mundane, it doesn't like you because bug spirits are extremely hard to hurt without said magic. Chicago is just a really really crappy place to be in the SR world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I mean, as a GM myself, I'd give very very clear warning before making a Chicago game. As in 'do you guys want to play in a Chicago game, knowing what it entails.' It's one of those places that, if given the choice between 'Worst Part of the Barrens' or 'Chicago', you're in the Barrens before you can even think about the question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Unless you play an Insect Shaman. Which, unfortunately, is out of the question for Missions.

[Sendaz]

Unless you play an Insect Shaman. Which, unfortunately, is out of the question for Missions.

Yeah that bugs me too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)