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Sesix
post Aug 8 2013, 10:46 PM
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Ok I have a player who likes to run around in a chameleon suit, sneaking around. He wants to surprise his targets a lot, so he wants to ambush. Now I understand he gets a +6 on his surprise test. So if I read this correct, though, it sounds like if he sees and knows his targets movement he doesnt have to test for surprise. That doesnt seem right as it also says before that that all participants need to make a surprise check. Help clarify this for me please.

Also the threshold of 3 for a surprise check seems really low.
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Voran
post Aug 8 2013, 10:53 PM
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SURPRISE!!!!!!
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Umidori
post Aug 8 2013, 11:30 PM
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Editing and emphasis mine, for the sake of clarity.

QUOTE ("SR5 @ p. 192)
Surprised characters are unaware... either because they failed to perceive something... or because the gamemaster decides that they didn’t have a chance to perceive it.

In some circumstances, gamemasters may wish to give a character the chance to be alerted that something is about to happen. The best way to do this is to make a secret Perception Test for the character.

A character who succeeds in the Perception Test is alerted in some way and receives a bonus on his Surprise Test.

The surprise rules below apply to all situations, whether all the parties involved are caught off guard or whether one or more parties are intentionally ambushing others.

To resolve surprise situations, all participants must make a Surprise Test, rolling Reaction + Intuition (3). Characters who have been alerted in some way receive a +3 dice pool modifier on this test. Surprise Tests do not have a Limit.

Success means individuals get to act normally. Failure means characters lose 10 from their Initiative Score (either when Initiative is rolled or immediately if it occurs in the middle of the Combat Turn) and they are considered surprised until their next Action Phase. Surprised characters get no Defense Test when attacked. This can be avoided by spending a point of Edge to avoid surprise. They still lose the Initiative Score points, but they can at least use their defense rolls.

So let's run through a quick example.

Ninja Runner is Sneaking along, when he turns a corner and almost bumps into Corporate Guard. The Guard isn't Sneaking, and is in normal clothing in normal lighting and visibility conditions, so the GM rules that Ninja doesn't even have to roll perception and automatically detects him.

However, Guard doesn't succeed in his Perception check to notice Ninja - who is wearing a Chameleon Suit and actively Sneaking - so Guard is automatically unaware. The only thing being "unaware" means is that Guard doesn't get the +3 on his Surprise Test.

Both Ninja and Guard roll their Reaction + Intuition. In this case, Ninja gets a solid 5 hits, so the Guard has not surprised Ninja. However, poor Guard only got 1 hit, so Ninja has surprised Guard. Combat begins, Initiative is rolled, and Guard suffers -10 Initiative. He rolled an 8, so that gets reduced to -2, meaning Guard doesn't get to act this Combat Turn. He also is Surprised, meaning he can't take any defensive actions. Ninja swings his sword and Guard just eats it - Ninja gets 5 hits on his attack, which all count as net hits for extra damage. Ouch! Unfortunately for Guard, Ninja rolled a 19 on his Initiative, so here comes another swing! I can't watch!

Let's back up for a second, though. Let's say that instead of rolling an 8 on Initiative, Guard instead rolled an 11. His penalty for failing his Surprised Test drops him 10 Initiative, and he still can't defend, but he's left with exactly 1 Initiative, meaning this time he gets to take an action before Ninja can use his second Initiative Pass to finish him off. Guard can't use his action to fight back - characters who are surprised cannot act against nonsurprised ones - but he's going to spend his turn calling for backup and running as far away as he can from the sword wielding psycho. Good call, Guard!

Let's go another step back. Let's say that Guard and Ninja are in a creaky old building with wooden floorboards, and that the GM decided this gave Guard an extra Perception Test to be able to detect Ninja's approach. This time around, Guard gets lucky and manages to hear Ninja coming! He's no longer "unaware", and he gets a +3 bonus to his Surprise Test. Those +3 dice really help this time - instead of only 1 hit, Guard manages to squeeze out 3 hits, meeting the Surprise Threshold! He manages to react quickly enough to the sound of creaking floorboards to not be taken by surprise! At this point, combat occurs as normal, because neither Ninja nor Guard are surprised.

Let's go one final step back. Let's say that instead of sneaking around a corner and accidentally bumping into Guard, Ninja is lying in wait ready to Ambush whoever comes around the corner. The ambushing rules (which I did not quote above) tell us that an Ambusher receives +6 on their surprise test, and that they are immune to being surprised by their prey, assuming they can actually see them coming, or otherwise are aware of their movements. So when Guard comes around that corner, Ninja will almost certainly not be surprised by him!

Except that Guard doesn't come around the corner. Ninja waits a little but all is quiet - too quiet. He begins to sweat, and he gets a creeping feeling down the back of his neck. Suddenly, something big, hulking, metallic, and possibly even once-human is behind Ninja, looming over him! He failed his Perception Test to spot the chameleon coated cyberzombie creeping up from behind! Oh drek! Fortunately, Ninja was primed for an ambush - he gets +6 on his Surprise Test, and easily clears the threshold of 3 to avoid being surprised. That said, it's a darn good thing he did beat the threshold, because being caught surprised and unable to defend or act against a cyberzombie is bad news! Meanwhile, the cyberzombie is immune to being surprised by Ninja in this test, because the cyberzombie crept up and ambushed Ninja!

-----

TL:DR - Yes, if he can see his prey while ambushing, they cannot surprise him. Also, I agree that the flat (3) Threshold doesn't feel right - in SR4 you compared test results between characters, and anyone with a lower total than you was surprised by you. Even your allies!

~Umi
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Voran
post Aug 9 2013, 12:38 AM
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Actually I kinda like this version of surprise. Just because you've setup an ambush and THINK you have advantage, doesn't mean you can't be the one surprised too.
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Aaron
post Aug 9 2013, 01:30 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 8 2013, 06:30 PM) *
Let's back up for a second, though. Let's say that instead of rolling an 8 on Initiative, Guard instead rolled and 11. His penalty for failing his Surprised Test drops him 10 Initiative, and he still can't defend, but he's left with exactly 1 Initiative, meaning this time he gets to take an action before Ninja can use his second Initiative Pass to finish him off. Guard can't use his action to fight back - characters who are surprised cannot act against nonsurprised ones - but he's going to spend his turn calling for backup and running as far away as he can from the sword wielding psycho. Good call, Guard!

Why can't the guard act against the ninja? It's his action phase, and "Failure means characters ... are considered surprised until their next Action Phase" (p. 192). Isn't that the guard's next action phase?
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Lantzer
post Aug 9 2013, 01:34 AM
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I'm a little worried about this bit of the interpretation:

QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 9 2013, 12:30 AM) *
His penalty for failing his Surprised Test drops him 10 Initiative, and he still can't defend, but he's left with exactly 1 Initiative, meaning this time he gets to take an action before Ninja can use his second Initiative Pass to finish him off. Guard can't use his action to fight back - characters who are surprised cannot act against nonsurprised ones - but he's going to spend his turn calling for backup and running as far away as he can from the sword wielding psycho.


The rules you stated do not favor this particular scenario. Either the guard can't react to the Ninja on his first action because he's surprised (and therefore can't back away and call for backup), or he can act against the Ninja and just suffers from a lack of defense pool and can otherwise act normally at his lower initiative (which mean he can attack if he wants to).

The scenario above is a strange mishmash of the two options. Which one is appropriate based on the rules as given?
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Umidori
post Aug 9 2013, 02:24 AM
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Both of you are asking about a portion of the rules I neglected to quote, one entitled "Effects of Surprise". Emphasis mine.

QUOTE ("SR5 @ p. 194")
Characters who are surprised cannot take any actions that directly affect, impede, or counteract characters who are not surprised. This means surprised characters cannot attack the non-surprised characters, nor can they dodge or defend against attacks from those characters; the surprised character cannot react to the other characters’ actions in any way. The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it).

This is very similar to, if not exactly the same as, the SR4 wording.

Now, you're probably thinking "If the surprised character cannot react to the other characters' actions, why can they drop prone or ready a weapon? Isn't that reacting to the other characters' actions?" Well, no, because it's a reaction to being surprised and the general situation, not a direct reaction to a specific action by a specific character. You can't act in direct response to a particular action that the non-surprised enemy takes (hence why you can't Dodge in response to being shot), but you can do general response actions like dropping prone or pulling a gun that are not directly focused against a specific non-surprised enemy, but which may still make that enemy's life harder on the next Action Phase. Calling for backup is just such an action - even if Guard hasn't properly seen who has attacked him, he still knows he's under attack and he can respond to that situation by hitting his radio and screaming "I'm under attack! Enemy unknown!"

Now Aaron, for the other part of your post, you seem to be confusing the way that Initiative works here.

When the Guard gets surprised, he suffers a reduction of Initiative that applies when Combat starts. If he rolls 11 on the first Combat Turn, that gets reduced to 1, then combat proceeds as normal. On the first Action Phase/Initiative Pass, Ninja goes first because his Initiate Score is higher. But remember, once Ninja has gone, it's still the 1st phase/pass. The person with the next highest positive Initiative Score goes next - in this case, Guard, with a score of 1. After Guard goes, the phase/pass is over, everyone has their Initiative Score reduced by 10, and anyone still positive gets to go during the second phase/pass. At this point, Ninja can attack again and finish Guard off, but not before Guard has had a turn to take an action (albeit one that is not an attack or other direct action against Ninja).

~Umi
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Aaron
post Aug 9 2013, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 8 2013, 09:24 PM) *
Now Aaron, for the other part of your post, you seem to be confusing the way that Initiative works here.

When the Guard gets surprised, he suffers a reduction of Initiative that applies when Combat starts. If he rolls 11 on the first Combat Turn, that gets reduced to 1, then combat proceeds as normal. On the first Action Phase/Initiative Pass, Ninja goes first because his Initiate Score is higher. But remember, once Ninja has gone, it's still the 1st phase/pass. The person with the next highest positive Initiative Score goes next - in this case, Guard, with a score of 1. After Guard goes, the phase/pass is over, everyone has their Initiative Score reduced by 10, and anyone still positive gets to go during the second phase/pass. At this point, Ninja can attack again and finish Guard off, but not before Guard has had a turn to take an action (albeit one that is not an attack or other direct action against Ninja).

~Umi

Are you sure you're not conflating the Initiative Pass and the Action Phase? They seem to be separate things on p. 158.
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Umidori
post Aug 9 2013, 06:21 AM
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One is part of the other. The Action Phase of an Initiative Pass is the point during which a character takes their action.

So combat starts. The 1st Combat Turn begins. People roll their Initiative. The 1st Initiative Pass begins. Each character in turn takes their 1st Action Phase. Everyone's Initiative is lowered by 10. Anyone who is still positive gets a 2nd Initiative Pass. Each character with a 2nd pass again acts in turn, in the form of another Action Phase - their second one of the Combat Turn - as part of this 2nd Initiative Pass. Initiative is again lowered by 10, anyone still positive gets a 3rd Initiative Pass, taking a 3rd Action Phase when their Initiative is reached in the order of actions, and so on. When all Initiative values are negative, the Combat Turn ends. At this point, a new Combat Turn begins, everyone rolls Initiative again, and now we're onto the 1st Initiative Pass of the 2nd Combat Turn. Et cetera.

Applying this to Ninja and Guard.

Combat Starts. Ninja rolls 20 on his Initiative, Guard rolls 11. The surprise modifer changes this to 1. The 1st Pass of the 1st Combat Turn begins. Ninja goes first, taking his Action Phase. Once Ninja is done, we go to the character with the next highest Initiative - Guard. He takes his Action Phase. When he's done, the Initiative Pass Ends, everyone loses 10 Initiative, and Ninja is the only one still positive, so now he gets a 2nd Initiative Pass, and can take another action in this second Action Phase.

Now, technically, yes, when Guard takes his action is taking the 2nd total Action Phase of the 1st Pass. But it's his 1st personal Action Phase, and it's definitely still the 1st Initiative Pass. Ambush lasts for Guard until his 2nd personal Action Phase, so until the next time Guard gets to act - in this case, not until the next Combat Turn. Now, if Guard had somehow rolled a 21 on his Initiative, modified down to 11, his Suprise would only last until the 2nd Initiative Pass, because that would be when he would next be able to act.

~Umi
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ElFenrir
post Aug 9 2013, 07:47 AM
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Actually, the 'No Defense Roll' I read as 'No Reaction+Intuition+Whatever else' roll. They are still allowed to roll armor and Body, because Armor does not care if you're surprised or not. If I surprise a guard in heavy body armor by sneaking up and throwing a rock at him, he won't get to roll defense against it, but he is going to get to roll to see if he can absorb the rock damage. Or well you always could before.

If they CHANGED that to 'No defense, no soak, no nothing, Final Destination', that's getting changed right back to the 'No avoidance roll is allowed if you're surprised, but you can soak' that it always has been in my houserules. Not being able to soak any damage from armor doesn't make much sense-just because you can't try to dodge(which makes completely perfect sense), doesn't mean that the attack will successfully hurt you a lot. Again, heavy body armor doesn't care if you're surprised or not.
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Umidori
post Aug 9 2013, 08:25 AM
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You always soak damage, unless directly stated otherwise in the rules for whatever is inflicting the damage, like Direct Combat spells.

~Umi
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ElFenrir
post Aug 9 2013, 08:30 AM
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That's what I figured. I was running with it like that as it was, but whenever I see surprise setups played out on some forums and online stuff, I notice the soaking step is always skipped, so that's what made me scratch my head and start poring over rules again.
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Umidori
post Aug 9 2013, 08:32 AM
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Yeah, I didn't think to cover the damage soak because it's pretty much always handled the same way. You get hit, you soak the damage. Seemed a little redundant to include it is all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi
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Aaron
post Aug 9 2013, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 9 2013, 01:21 AM) *
Combat Starts. Ninja rolls 20 on his Initiative, Guard rolls 11. The surprise modifer changes this to 1. The 1st Pass of the 1st Combat Turn begins. Ninja goes first, taking his Action Phase. Once Ninja is done, we go to the character with the next highest Initiative - Guard. He takes his Action Phase. When he's done, the Initiative Pass Ends, everyone loses 10 Initiative, and Ninja is the only one still positive, so now he gets a 2nd Initiative Pass, and can take another action in this second Action Phase.

Now, technically, yes, when Guard takes his action is taking the 2nd total Action Phase of the 1st Pass. But it's his 1st personal Action Phase, and it's definitely still the 1st Initiative Pass. Ambush lasts for Guard until his 2nd personal Action Phase, so until the next time Guard gets to act - in this case, not until the next Combat Turn. Now, if Guard had somehow rolled a 21 on his Initiative, modified down to 11, his Suprise would only last until the 2nd Initiative Pass, because that would be when he would next be able to act.

~Umi

I don't know. If it was supposed to be the Action Phase after their next, wouldn't it say "until the Action Phase after their next" instead of "until their next Action Phase" like it says in the book? It seems that at the moment surprise is determined, the answer to the question "When is the guard's next Action Phase?" is "at 1."
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HugeC
post Aug 9 2013, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 8 2013, 06:30 PM) *
Both Ninja and Guard roll their Reaction + Initiative.

Minor correction: Surprise Tests are Reaction + Intuition.

I'm with Aaron. Guard already lost what would have been his first action phase due to the -10 initiative penalty. Once he gets to go on 1, he's no longer surprised. If Ninja can't one-shot a defenseless foe, he needs to work on those ninja skills! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Umidori
post Aug 9 2013, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (HugeC @ Aug 9 2013, 06:55 AM) *
Minor correction: Surprise Tests are Reaction + Intuition.

Good catch! Edited now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The -10 Initiative is definitely separate from the "Effects of Surprise", as stated in the section discussing Success and Failure of the Surprise Test.

QUOTE ("SR5 @ p. 192)
Failure means characters lose 10 from their Initiative Score (either when Initiative is rolled or immediately if it occurs in the middle of the Combat Turn) and they are considered surprised until their next Action Phase.

Additionally, if the Effects of Surprise only last until the surprised party is able to take their first Action Phase of combat, then why would they bother making one of those Effects be the inability to directly react to a surprising enemy? (The whole ready a weapon but not shoot it thing.) That makes no sense. You'd recover from Surprise before that ever took effect! So clearly it lasts until your 2nd Action Phase.

This is similar to the SR4 rules. There, the effects of Surprise lasted through the entire 1st Initiative Pass, but no longer applied at the start of the 2nd Pass. The net result in either case is that you're Surprised until you get to your 2nd chance to take an action.

~Umi
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Sesix
post Aug 9 2013, 07:35 PM
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Ok I see. But still seems that only needing three hits is low to pass the surprise test.
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forgarn
post Aug 9 2013, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 9 2013, 11:17 AM) *
Good catch! Edited now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The -10 Initiative is definitely separate from the "Effects of Surprise", as stated in the section discussing Success and Failure of the Surprise Test.


Additionally, if the Effects of Surprise only last until the surprised party is able to take their first Action Phase of combat, then why would they bother making one of those Effects be the inability to directly react to a surprising enemy? (The whole ready a weapon but not shoot it thing.) That makes no sense. You'd recover from Surprise before that ever took effect! So clearly it lasts until your 2nd Action Phase.

This is similar to the SR4 rules. There, the effects of Surprise lasted through the entire 1st Initiative Pass, but no longer applied at the start of the 2nd Pass. The net result in either case is that you're Surprised until you get to your 2nd chance to take an action.

~Umi


I think you are confusing suprise with this:
QUOTE
A critical glitch on a Surprise Test means the character is completely stunned and does not act for the first Action Phase.
from pg. 192.

Also see the example on pg. 193 where Sir Rigs-A-Lot was suprised but acts on his modified initiative of 3 (rolled a 13 -10 for being surprised) in the first Initiative Pass as does Caster with a modified 1.
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Aaron
post Aug 9 2013, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 9 2013, 11:17 AM) *
Good catch! Edited now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Additionally, if the Effects of Surprise only last until the surprised party is able to take their first Action Phase of combat, then why would they bother making one of those Effects be the inability to directly react to a surprising enemy? (The whole ready a weapon but not shoot it thing.)

A fair question. It seems to me that there are a number of things that being surprised prevents you from doing to the entity or entities that surprised you before your next Action Phase (as opposed to the one after next):

  • Spend and Edge to go first in the Initiative Pass.
  • Use an Interrupt Action.
  • Use a Delayed Action held from before you were surprised.
  • Use a Free Action if the surprise came after your Action Phase in the Initiative Pass.

... and probably some others I didn't think about before I hit Add Reply.
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Umidori
post Aug 10 2013, 05:04 AM
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QUOTE (forgarn @ Aug 9 2013, 01:48 PM) *
I think you are confusing suprise with this:

I'm not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I've quoted both sections. I'll do so again.

Surprise Test

QUOTE ("SR5 @ p. 192)
Failure means characters lose 10 from their Initiative Score (either when Initiative is rolled or immediately if it occurs in the middle of the Combat Turn) and they are considered surprised until their next Action Phase.

Effects of Surprise

QUOTE ("SR5 @ p. 194")
Characters who are surprised cannot take any actions that directly affect, impede, or counteract characters who are not surprised. This means surprised characters cannot attack the non-surprised characters, nor can they dodge or defend against attacks from those characters; the surprised character cannot react to the other characters’ actions in any way. The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it).

That said, the section you quoted also applies on top of the normal Effects of Surprise. If you critically glitch the Surprise Test, you don't merely lose the ability to "react to the other characters' actions in any way", you flat out cannot act at all in your first Action Phase / the first Initiative Pass.

In the example on p.193, Caster and Rigs-A-Lot fail their Surprise Tests, and then suffer both the -10 Initiative penalty and the Effects of Surprise, and cannot react to those who surprised them. They do still get to take an action, but it can't be directed at those foes that surprised them.

~Umi
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