[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Perhaps Magic+Summoning[Astral], if indeed there must be a limit?

See, I think that Limits do nothing more than just piss me off. Such a horrible idea. *shakes head*

[Shinobi Killfist]

Perhaps Magic+Summoning[Astral], if indeed there must be a limit?

I would have preferred if all magic had an astral limit. not a fan of the make your own limit on the fly mechanics when other parts of the game have set limits.

[RHat]

I would have preferred if all magic had an astral limit. not a fan of the make your own limit on the fly mechanics when other parts of the game have set limits.

That would require a lot of spell changes, but it's not a bad idea.

[Maelwys]

I guess I define incapacitate as slightly more damaging than y'all do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still haven't made up my mind about reagents. I can't tell if they're a viable part of the system, or if they're a bandaid for a flawed system.

[CeeJay]

If we take an extreme example, summoning a F1 spirit results in no services 33% of the time and only 1 service 66% of the time, no matter how powerful a mage you are.

And now someone will interject with "but reagents!"...

Reagents are the canned answer to every problem with magic that might be caused by the badly implemented limit rules. Sure it doesn't make sense that you'll get more services from a higher Force spirit, but reagents! I feel like the spirit of Billy Mays needs to be hawking these things.

And now have a look at binding a F1 spirit... That doesn't work in at least 44.4% of the time regardless of your own roll. And the "but reagents" argument isn't working here at all.
Whoever came up with the idea to use [Force] as both a limit on one side of an opposed test AND as dicepool on the other side clearly hasn't tested that mechanism enough. The math just doesn't deliver the expected results. Sorry, but that's a clear failure...

-CJ

[Shinobi Killfist]

I guess I define incapacitate as slightly more damaging than y'all do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still haven't made up my mind about reagents. I can't tell if they're a viable part of the system, or if they're a bandaid for a flawed system.

I kind of think they are both. Reagents when used to go for broke and make the big core are a viable part of the system, when used to summon a force 1 spirit because the math sucks is a patch.

I kind of find Qi Focuses in e same boat. On one side giving adepts a nuyen sink is a viable part of the system, but at the same time they kind of are just a patch for over costed powers.

[Jaid]

wait, we're really calling qi focuses a nuyen sink for adepts? that sink will be full after 3-4 shadowruns even with the crappy payouts in SR5. that's not a sink, that's more like an already-damp sponge.

[Shinobi Killfist]

wait, we're really calling qi focuses a nuyen sink for adepts? that sink will be full after 3-4 shadowruns even with the crappy payouts in SR5. that's not a sink, that's more like an already-damp sponge.

Fine damp sponge. :0

But I understand that was one of the intents though.

Still as you improve its another 3 grand every time you boost your magic score. Nothing like ware costs, but with the crap expected payouts it is something.

[HugeC]

The limit of Force on summoning / binding tests really bugged me, so here's my take on house rules to 'fix' conjuring. I always hated the swinginess of SR4's conjuring drain, which SR5 has kept, so these are much more predictable rules drain-wise. PEACH!

[Draco18s]

The limit of Force on summoning / binding tests really bugged me, so here's my take on house rules to 'fix' conjuring. I always hated the swinginess of SR4's conjuring drain, which SR5 has kept, so these are much more predictable rules drain-wise. PEACH!

Excuse me Sir and/or Madam, but your document does not indicate what value "Astral" is calculated from.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Excuse me Sir and/or Madam, but your document does not indicate what value "Astral" is calculated from.

Astral is either your social or mental limit I can't remember if its set by tradition or whichever is greater.

[HugeC]

Astral is either your social or mental limit I can't remember if its set by tradition or whichever is greater.

Emphasis mine.

[Maelwys]

On another amusing note...

Indirect Spells that are AoE require a Spellcasting+Magic [Force] test with a threshold of 3 to get them to land where you want.

So unless you spend edge, or reagents, if you cast the spell at Force 1 or 2, you can't actually land the spell where you want it.

That seems a little..odd. (of course, as one person said when I realized this, "Why would you want to cast at Force 1 or 2," but that's a different discussion.

So far, the limit for Spirits, Artificing and AoE indirect combat spells seem to be off, and requiring you to use reagents, instead of reagents being an additional bonus.

[Maelwys]

Something that occurred to me today. Its not really a fully fleshed out thought, just an idly curious one.

Magic for the most part scales in the same manner as it did in the previous editions (Although you have to buy your new magic point in SR5, compared to just getting it in SR2 and 3). Your maximum 6+initiation. No real change there.

However, the skill for magic has changed. Its no longer 1-6ish, now its 1-12ish. As your skill and magic attribute start to get up there, presumably you're going to want to do bigger and better things. Higher Force spells to take advantage of the larger dicepools, spirits with more force, etc. And this seems to work.

But what about Drain? Is it going to be able to handle the higher forces that come with the advancing game? Consider this.

At chargen, a human magician will have (Atleast as far as I can tell) at best 11-13 dice to counter drain. (one drain attribute at 5, one at 6 or 6 and 7 if you have exceptional attribute). But that's really it. They're not going to get much higher than 13 dice even during gameplay (only one exception attribute is allowed). That's probably more than sufficient at chargen when you're casting low level spells, but will it be sufficient later on?

I'm not sure Drain scales at all, unless you invest in a improved attribute spell or two as well as sustaining foci, but that's going to be pretty heavy in the first place, since the Force of the Increase Attribute spell must meet or exceed the augmented value of the attribute (and the force of the foci must be equal to or greater than the force of the spell). So this seems pretty painful to do.

I also just noticed that most of the foci seem to specifically say that they're adding to the magic attribute or the skill, which means they won't help with drain (unlike say the Power Foci in 3rd Edition, which added to either drain or sorcery or conjuring).

So. Since Drain doesn't seem to scale without massive investment, is it going to be able to handle the high level game?

[Trigger]

But what about Drain? Is it going to be able to handle the higher forces that come with the advancing game? Consider this.

At chargen, a human magician will have (Atleast as far as I can tell) at best 11-13 dice to counter drain. (one drain attribute at 5, one at 6 or 6 and 7 if you have exceptional attribute). But that's really it. They're not going to get much higher than 13 dice even during gameplay (only one exception attribute is allowed). That's probably more than sufficient at chargen when you're casting low level spells, but will it be sufficient later on?

I'm not sure Drain scales at all, unless you invest in a improved attribute spell or two as well as sustaining foci, but that's going to be pretty heavy in the first place, since the Force of the Increase Attribute spell must meet or exceed the augmented value of the attribute (and the force of the foci must be equal to or greater than the force of the spell). So this seems pretty painful to do.

I also just noticed that most of the foci seem to specifically say that they're adding to the magic attribute or the skill, which means they won't help with drain (unlike say the Power Foci in 3rd Edition, which added to either drain or sorcery or conjuring).

So. Since Drain doesn't seem to scale without massive investment, is it going to be able to handle the high level game?

You are forgetting the Centering Metamagic. One extra die for soaking drain for every Initiation level that you have.

[HugeC]

I seem to recall a rule (perhaps an optional one?) in SR4 that let you forgo dice on your Spellcasting test to add them to the drain resistance test, much like you could with spell pool in previous editions. I don't recall reading that for SR5, but maybe that would help?

Or, perhaps mages aren't supposed to cast spells with a Force near their Magic rating; perhaps it's just there to increase dice pools and give you more room for active foci. With just Centering, you can increase the Force by 1 per 3 initiations and take the same amount of drain.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I seem to recall a rule (perhaps an optional one?) in SR4 that let you forgo dice on your Spellcasting test to add them to the drain resistance test, much like you could with spell pool in previous editions. I don't recall reading that for SR5, but maybe that would help?

Or, perhaps mages aren't supposed to cast spells with a Force near their Magic rating; perhaps it's just there to increase dice pools and give you more room for active foci. With just Centering, you can increase the Force by 1 per 3 initiations and take the same amount of drain.

Previous Editions to SR4 allowed that. It was not allowed in SR4/SR4A.

[Jaid]

Previous Editions to SR4 allowed that. It was not allowed in SR4/SR4A.

briefly, pre-errata, spellcasting and summoning focuses could be used for drain resistance. then they changed it, and made it basically useless to ever buy anything other than a power focus. that might be what he's remembering.

[Maelwys]

You are forgetting the Centering Metamagic. One extra die for soaking drain for every Initiation level that you have.

Ah, so I am. Well, that's atleast one way to improve drain as you get higher up in the magic realms.

Are there any others?

[Draco18s]

briefly, pre-errata, spellcasting and summoning focuses could be used for drain resistance. then they changed it, and made it basically useless to ever buy anything other than a power focus. that might be what he's remembering.

They could be used, yes, but the change was made because how they could be used was confusing. You got the bonus dice to split between the two rolls, not the bonus dice to both.

[Jaid]

They could be used, yes, but the change was made because how they could be used was confusing. You got the bonus dice to split between the two rolls, not the bonus dice to both.

err... no.

here are the new descriptions of those focuses:

"Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s Spellcasting and
Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. These dice may be used to cast a spell
more effectively as long as it is of the category appropriate to the focus."

"Summoning foci add their Force in dice to any attempt to
summon the appropriate type of spirit. These dice may be used for the
Summoning Test, as long as the type of spirit is appropriate to the focus."

"Binding foci add their Force to the magician’s Binding + Magic
dice pool when binding an appropriate type of spirit. A binding focus
can also add its dice when the magician is re-binding a spirit."

absolutely no indication whatsoever that they can be used for drain resistance test. not even the slightest hint of it.

here are the old descriptions:

"Spellcasting foci add their Force to a magician’s
Spellcasting and Ritual Spellcasting dice pools. Th ese dice may
be used to cast a spell more eff ectively or withheld to help the
magician with Drain."

"Summoning foci add their Force in dice to any attempt
to summon the appropriate type of spirit. Th ese dice may be
used for the Summoning Test, or they may be withheld to
help resist Drain."

"Binding foci add their Force to the magician’s Magic +
Binding dice pool when binding an appropriate type of spirit,
or the extra dice may be withheld to help resist Drain. A binding
focus can also add its dice when the magician is re-binding
a spirit."

as you can see, it is quite clearly an *or* situation in these older versions, and in fact they quite clearly state that those bonus dice had to be withheld if you wanted to use them for drain resistance. very clearly not usable for both. the wording never remotely implied you could use it for both, and the new wording doesn't even acknowledge that there could ever be a possibility of using the bonus dice for drain resistance under any circumstances.

it was changed specifically to make it so that you could not use them to resist drain.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eventually paving the way for Centering Foci, which CAN be used to resist drain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

Or more Blood magic and let some other sap pay the Drain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Draco18s]

err... no.
[snip]
absolutely no indication whatsoever that they can be used for drain resistance test. not even the slightest hint of it.

Fantastic, helping me prove my point. You are correct sir, the current descriptions do not say that you can. Hence the past tense verb I used, emphasized by "changed made."

it was changed specifically to make it so that you could not use them to resist drain.

I think I said that. Or at the very least implied it through heavy use of quote tags and phraseology.

as you can see, it is quite clearly an *or* situation in these older versions, and in fact they quite clearly state that those bonus dice had to be withheld if you wanted to use them for drain resistance. very clearly not usable for both. the wording never remotely implied you could use it for both, and the new wording doesn't even acknowledge that there could ever be a possibility of using the bonus dice for drain resistance under any circumstances.

I never doubted your interpretation, I said that some people were getting confused. I agree that it's pretty strait forward, but there was a discussion some time ago about this back when the change was made with SR4A.

[Jaid]

I never doubted your interpretation, I said that some people were getting confused. I agree that it's pretty strait forward, but there was a discussion some time ago about this back when the change was made with SR4A.

you said: "They could be used, yes, but the change was made because how they could be used was confusing. You got the bonus dice to split between the two rolls, not the bonus dice to both."

in a discussion regarding the use of focuses to resist drain, i'm not sure what you would expect that to mean other than stating that they intended that you could use a spellcasting/summoning/binding focus to resist drain, but that people were getting confused into thinking they could use the focus for both, and as a result they changed it to make it clear that you couldn't use the bonus dice for both tests.

is that not what you were saying?

because my answer to that is "no, that very clearly isn't why they were changed, otherwise the changed versions would still let you use the bonus dice for drain". given that the newest versions were made to not allow using them to reduce drain ever under any circumstances, it would seem that the reason they changed them is that they never intended them to be used for drain resistance in the first place, and that it had nothing to do with people getting confused about using them to add to both dicepools.