Armor stacking is silly. Options

[Raiden]

so in SR4 I found that it is possible to stack armor to about +6 above heavy military armor, why is this? it does not make sense to me.

[Umidori]

Yeah, we know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

SR5 handles armor much more nicely, but if you're not ready or don't want to make the jump, just nix FFBA. Easy.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, we know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

SR5 handles armor much more nicely, but if you're not ready or don't want to make the jump, just nix FFBA. Easy.
~Umi

Or, you know, just do not abuse it to stupid levels. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Umidori]

I was speaking more from a GM point of view than that of a player who doesn't want to be a jerk and exploit an overpowered option.

~Umi

[Blastula]

Or, you know, just do not abuse it to stupid levels. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Restraint is a trait that's as uncommon as common sense. At least in my experience. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was speaking more from a GM point of view than that of a player who doesn't want to be a jerk and exploit an overpowered option.

~Umi

I know... Ahh, well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Restraint is a trait that's as uncommon as common sense. At least in my experience.

Also sad but true... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[SpellBinder]

so in SR4 I found that it is possible to stack armor to about +6 above heavy military armor, why is this? it does not make sense to me.

You're not trying hard enough if you're only at +6 above Heavy Military Armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Granted, not a starting character here (nor one I'd threaten a GM with for gameplay), but if he were in Heavy Military Armor, with helmet, his armor would stand at 41/39. I could make it even higher if I tried.

[Lionhearted]

I've found that it's something you have to make your mind up about as a group... Do you restrict the ridiculous stacking promoting more careful and deliberate play or you do it by the book and expect everyone pull out every trick to stay alive... Cyberlimb armour, adept armour, armour spells...
Problem with the latter is that the players that aren't in the know gets kind of screwed over... problem with the former is that the players in the know feel restricted and screwed over (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Finster]

Now wait a minute. What am I missing here? I thought the only armor you could ever stack in SR4 was FFBA and a helmet. And even if you did get to 41, wouldn't that drive AGI/REA down to 0 because of the armor encumbrance rule? Or are you counting cyberware enhancements?

Sorry, I guess my real question is how did you get to 41/39?

[Lionhearted]

Cyberlimb armour, helmets, shields, NA, orthoskin and so on...

[Medicineman]

Sorry, I guess my real question is how did you get to 41/39?

Cyberarmor 20/20 (Torso Arms,Legs)
Softweaved Delta Amyloid Rheingold Combination 14/6 or Cyberpirate Combi 14/7
FFBA 6/2
Armor Spell 6/6
thats 46/35(or 36) and unencumbered if STR 6 and BOD 6
or if You get it as a taylormade Suit you only need STR 5 and BOD 4
(Calculation was made by Memory only .I hope its right)

JahtaHey
Medicineman

[Flaser]

Now wait a minute. What am I missing here? I thought the only armor you could ever stack in SR4 was FFBA and a helmet. And even if you did get to 41, wouldn't that drive AGI/REA down to 0 because of the armor encumbrance rule? Or are you counting cyberware enhancements?

Sorry, I guess my real question is how did you get to 41/39?

FFBA only counts as 1/2 for encumbrance purposes. Securetech stuff can add another +2/+2... built in armor/cyberlimbs don't count for encumbrance... so yeah, it's not impossible to achieve stats higher than heavy military armor.
(Military armor is out right stated to be incompatible with anything else, so no, it can't be stacked).

[SpellBinder]

Now wait a minute. What am I missing here? I thought the only armor you could ever stack in SR4 was FFBA and a helmet. And even if you did get to 41, wouldn't that drive AGI/REA down to 0 because of the armor encumbrance rule? Or are you counting cyberware enhancements?

Sorry, I guess my real question is how did you get to 41/39?

Cyberlimb armour, helmets, shields, NA, orthoskin and so on...

Pretty much. Two partial cyber arms at Armor 3, two partial cyber legs at Armor 4, cyber torso at Armor 4, Orthoskin 3, & Mystic Armor 2 (yes, this character is Essence 2.# and a Mystic Adept) for a total of 23/23, then the Heavy Military Armor w/ Helmet for 18/16. Yes, this does encumber the character some, but the encumbrance only impacts the character's ability to evade attacks, not soak damage.

Trust me, I could go even more disgusting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I'm sure someone else already has.

[Fatum]

Minding that net hits on attack test go into damage, the ability to evade attacks and the ability to soak damage are all but the same, dice-wise.

[Lionhearted]

Minding that net hits on attack test go into damage, the ability to evade attacks and the ability to soak damage are all but the same, dice-wise.

The means to aquire the soak pool is a bit counter intuitive though, especially as you can outdo heavy milspec armour using things like FFBA

[Ryu]

so in SR4 I found that it is possible to stack armor to about +6 above heavy military armor, why is this? it does not make sense to me.

Answer 1: It doesn´t make sense.

Answer 2 (with GM hat on): Be happy and layer armor, I´ll cope. Promise. Just remember that an offensive tank build is more fun than only catching bullets - full cyber armor carries a very high opportunity cost.

Answer 3: One player got his samurai milspec armor for the add-ons.

[Lantzer]

I'd get Military armor for the mobility (and other) upgrades. Power armor is cool.

Also, nothing is stopping a cyber-armored character from wearing milspec. (the cyber-armor isssue is separate from the layering issue).

[Fatum]

All in all, I think this is a fringe case, where the character has to skip on a lot of options to acquire a huge soak pool - but that exchange is not in their favour, because a single mage is enough to punch through any damage soak.

[Elfenlied]

Always remember: F11+ Stunbolts don't care about armor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Ryu]

If all players are layering armor, one can expect a DR of 12-16 dice. With SR4 levels of lethality hitting stuff is pretty likely, so anything with an expected DV of 5+ will work. So what to do about a tank having double/triple the DR dice?

• The mage solution is nice because it does not require a balance adjustment for the other characters - those who are not driving the arms race.
• Heavy weapons specialists will easily punch through heavy armor using AP 1/2 weapons. Gauss > Laser, unless you need something silent. Aiming for additional damage can also help. Problem: Removing the squishy support guys should be top priority, so the non-offending players take the bullet.
• Press trigger until magazine empty. FA bursts are available on many weapons. The tank gets attacked half as much compared to the usual double tap, but will be damaged over the course of a firefight anyway. Increase the amount of recoil reduction in your world and you´re set. Milspec with integrated Gyro mount anyone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Poison and Nervestrike are also good choices. I've used the latter to great effects when two of my players were playing a Fomori Streetsam/Fomori Possession Mage with 40+ Soak DP.

Also, Called Shot for damage is amazingly good. -4DP for +4DV as a free action? Yes please!

[Neraph]

Pretty much. Two partial cyber arms at Armor 3, two partial cyber legs at Armor 4, cyber torso at Armor 4, Orthoskin 3, & Mystic Armor 2 (yes, this character is Essence 2.# and a Mystic Adept) for a total of 23/23, then the Heavy Military Armor w/ Helmet for 18/16. Yes, this does encumber the character some, but the encumbrance only impacts the character's ability to evade attacks, not soak damage.

Trust me, I could go even more disgusting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I'm sure someone else already has.

With a 400BP chargen Ragewind is able to get near 250/250 armor, completely legit. Ridiculous, but legit.

... I'm almost ashamed that I helped him with that also.

[SpellBinder]

Now I'm curious...

[Glyph]

All in all, I think this is a fringe case, where the character has to skip on a lot of options to acquire a huge soak pool - but that exchange is not in their favour, because a single mage is enough to punch through any damage soak.

Unless they are a fomori ghoul with arcane arrester, astral hazing, and a Willpower of 7...


Overall, though, tank builds can give new GMs fits, but tend to be one-trick (and not even an offensive trick) ponies that are still vulnerable to multiple other kinds of attacks. Things like mystic armor, orthoskin, or cyberlimb armor have a big opportunity cost - your ability to take a beating comes at the expense of being able to dish one out.

FFBA and PPP were both designed to stack with existing armor, and aren't really that horribly unbalanced. The discrepancy with miltech armor is because they made it too close to SWAT armor, stat-wise. If you can start out with a base rating that is the same as light miltech armor, then add FFBA and PPP to it, of course you will have a better rating than miltech armor.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Now I'm curious...

Resist the temptation... Though it may be legal, it is dependant upon some questionable readings of rules, and is totally ridiculous, as Neraph indicated.