 Do mages have it too easy?, They get new spells awfully quickly... |
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 Aug 31 2003, 05:15 PM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,464  |
Yeah. It's silly that magic should be able to do things that are otherwise completely impossible. Where's the realism in that?
One Magic Missile, once a day. By gumption, that's all those wand-wavers really need! |
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Aug 31 2003, 06:29 PM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,632 |
You sir, are an idiot. There is Realism in RPG's, and there is Balance. Where in this ENTIRE thread did anyone argue that magic shouldn't be able to break the laws of reality? This thread is about Magic being broke *balance* wise. Your argument is so inane it made my eyes cross. Curugul |
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Aug 31 2003, 07:04 PM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
As an initial premise, I'll suggest that magic is not supposed to be readily counterable by mundanes. If it were, there would be no reason for placing it as an A priority - parallel with 1 M :nuyen: of equipment! It should be a penultimate challenge - always! The significant advantage, should one choose to take it, is to specialise, preferably in such a way as to complement the team. The A priority magician is versatile, yes - but that is paid and paid and paid in karma which cannot be devoted to other things. There will (should?) never be enough karma to be as fully versatile as you describe, Curugal; hence the full magician must choose what s/he finds most important: healing? infiltration? combat? The full magician cannot dominate them all - and regardless, other skills will suffer (in comparison to other, non-magical members of the team). If you choose magic as B, it becomes adept magic - far more specialised, and far closer to the typical street samurai. The B priority adept is much more focused, much less flexible - arguably the balance equivalent of the equally focused street samurai. Like adepts, samurai specialise in a specific area: be it direct combat, sniping, infiltration, or yes, even high personal resistance of damage (I'm equating this to a physad's ability). There is no particular reason a street samurai, more than any other type of character, should have an advantage in combat specifically ... unless of course you are arguing that a street samurai really can hone skills and 'ware only toward one specific type of action (direct combat), that the street samurai can never have significant abilities outside direct combat, and that no other type of character can do the same.
This is valid ... only (I'd argue) not nearly to the extent you describe: the team of all magicians only ends up specialising to cover traditional "mundane" slots - and in any case thinking mundanes do remain perfectly capable of challenging a magician. (First rule: separate! Second rule: don't be seen!) But - most "standard" SR teams do usually include a magician. Magic should be balanced out with magic. If you choose not to face something magic with an appropriate (magical) tool, you aren't choosing the jobs your team is best designed to take ... or else you aren't choosing to adapt the group team design (I'm talking the players themselves here) to the world as you know it to be. There's magic out there. If you, the players who know what's out there and who have the freedom to design the individuals and the group accordingly, don't choose to include a magician in the group: well, is the game system to blame? |
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Aug 31 2003, 07:23 PM
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#54
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
never forget that magicans are maybe 1% of the entire worldspopulation, and how easy is it for a mage to block a mage? any corp worth anything will atleast hire some mage to put a spirit on partrol or ward the executive office (or maybe they just have the outer walls of the facility filled with FAB).
takeing out a mage isnt hard, bang and he is dead, just like any other human. if you just want to mess up his magic, try stuff like gas grenades with neur-stun, flash-paks (+4 to anyone in the area, +2 on flare comp), maybe concussion grenades. or if you realy want to be evil, a CCSS with drones instead of security guards (being not alive they mess up the target numbers badly!). most impartant, mages are still humans, catch one unprepared and he will be just as dead as the sammie. one funny way to frag up a invisible mage sneaking around is to put up ultrasonic motion detectors or preasure plates :) just dont do it to often as he will soon grab silence or levitate. one other thing could be to have a system where to get in the door you have to pass tru a field of FAB (the uv emitting variety) with guards behind two-way mirror (or one-way window or whatever its called) unlocking the door (or hell, maybe just make that cameras that are allso sensitive to uv)... basicly for fraging with the mages mind when beign mundane, staying out of the mages view and use stuff like fab or that awakend ivy stuff (being attacked by a plant is no fun for a stral mage)... there is nothing in SR that cant be counterd by other stuff or with a nice does of common sense (just look at the clueless casefiles :) )... |
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Aug 31 2003, 08:26 PM
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#55
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Target Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,464 |
You're the one whining about how magic ruins the game "where man meets magic and machine," and I'm an idiot? Have you never played Shadowrun, and maybe just sit around all day reading the books and being scared of mages? I've never seen what you describe, not once, in over a decade of playing Shadowrun. I don't know if your GM drowns the game in house rules, if your group has more munchkinny mages compared to mundanes, if he fudges his die rolls, or if he plays every mundane as an idiot (while utilizing magic to it's utmost). I figure it's gotta be one of those four, though. House rules? To me, any significant number of house rules can more or less completely invalidate someone's comments and ideas about a game's level of balance. If a game has a house rule that seriously changes the mechanics of X, then you're in no position to talk about the balance and fairness of whatever X is. I've seen games where people have lowered the costs, both in karma and nuyen, for various foci -- and then they complain mages are too potent. I've also seen games where the GM cut the Essence cost of all cyberware in half -- and then griped about how sammies cut through everything. If you use the rules as written, I don't see mages being the unstoppable overpowered machines you're whining about. If the only mages you ever see are the min/maxed monstrosity's created by your fellow gamers, I can understand your feelings, too. But not every mage in SR is an albino gnome with trauma dampeners, dripping with spell foci, power foci, and quickened armor (9) and increase reaction (9) spells. Not all mages are rating 3945784 initiates, and most of them lose in reaction tests to hardcore street sammies, have less body than a bulked out Troll, and don't dikote their ally spirit. If the mages you encounter (PC or NPC) are min/maxed to levels that other characters aren't... well, that's an issue with your game, and your gamers. It doesn't make the system itself inherently off-kilter. I'm all for GMs fudging the occasional die roll, to keep a game moving. If he doesn't want his Unstoppable Long-Running Villian ™ to die the first time you swing a punch, fine. If he doesn't want a long-running character to die from a lucky hold-out shot in a back alley, well, whatever. But if he's constantly keeping enemy mages from suffering drain, never succeeding on Spell Resistance checks at all, and things like that -- he's either fudging things severely, doesn't know the rules very well, or is dealing with more min/maxed and munchkinized spellcasters than non-spellcasters (see above). This would be, again, not an issue of the game and rules themselves so much as a problem with your GM. If your GM (or your party, for that matter) thinks things through to the next level, plans things down to the nitty-gritty, and uses their magical capabilties very well... but doesn't do it with mundane capabilities... that is, again, not the game's fault. Everyone has run into games where all anyone wants to do is charge in guns blazing (and it sometimes works, even). Everyone's also run into games where equipment lists can be two pages long, where plans are made down to the second, and where every contingency is planned for before any dice start being rolled. If the mundanes in your game (whether it's your buddy the street sam or the GM's security guards) don't take advantage of cover, smoke grenades, stealth rolls, and CP (nevermind actual planning and tactics)... and your mages do? Well, that's once again not a problem with Shadowrun itself. In other words, I have no fucking idea where you got the insane notion that mages are inherently unbalancing to a game. Can they do things mundanes can't? Yes. Can they do some things better than a mundane can? Yes. Do they cost a shitload of karma, nuyen, and starting character points? You betcha! Do they have to worry about things mundanes aren't bothered by? Right again! Is damage scarier to them, are healing checks tougher for them, are some monsters terrifying to them and not the rest of us? Yup! The only games I've ever seen where the types of problems you seem so worried about happen are in games where one of the four things I've described is going on. People that don't know the rules, abuse the rules, change the rules, or don't think things through and use the rules right. In an average game, with a GM and players that know the magic rules, with balanced karma/nuyen rewards all around... I've never seen it be a problem. There are enough negatives to being a mage (priorities being eaten up, checks for magic loss, tougher hospital stays, wards, essence draining monsters, FAB, background counts, etc) that it all balances out in a good game. |
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Aug 31 2003, 09:00 PM
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#56
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,632 |
Buy three sustaining foci. Sustain Improved Invisibility. Levitate. Armor (Or, if you rule armor glows, Deflect).
Thats 13 points of karma in spells. A bit more karma in foci, + a bit of nuyen. Any mage can do this. All smart mages who see combat regularly will do something similar. Balanced? I'll respond in length the the other replies later, since I have to go atm. Curugul |
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Aug 31 2003, 09:08 PM
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#57
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You do know the rules for Focus Addiction, don't you? |
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Sep 1 2003, 02:19 AM
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#58
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,632 |
Yes, do you? 7 magic means 6+6+1 = 13, 7*2 = 14. The mage is fine. Or, for a starting mage, 6 invis, 5 armor, 1 invis. Care to get into Quickening? Will respond to the rest later. Curugul |
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Sep 1 2003, 02:39 AM
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#59
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes I do! I also know that a mage does not normally start out with a Magic of 7! As to quickening, I know those rules as well. :) |
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Sep 1 2003, 05:50 AM
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#60
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 7-August 03 Member No.: 5,347 |
Actually dealing with invisiblity isn't all the problem it's cracked up to be. Just a few examples. For the magical one: Spirit spotters - have spirits spot the mage from Astral space - manifest and point, the guards then hose the area with auto suppression fire, sure the mage can deal with the spirit but then he will be occupied with that for a while and possibly risk physical drain. For the mundane one: Motion sensor triggered sentry guns and/or drones - again with the full auto suppression fire.
I could go on and on with ways to counter mages, but i'm not really sure it would help. In all the years i've played RPG's i have noticed that GM's nearly always have strong feelings about magic, many are very pro- or antimagic. I have had the distinct displeasure of playing for many years with a GM that basically hated magic, at least if we players had it ( it was a control question ofcourse ), now this guy would hate SR, not because of the Cyberpunk genre, but because of magic. But the sixth world is an awakened world, magic IS powerfull, why else would the corps line up to snatch up all the mages, that they possibly can. And this blend of fantasy and cyberpunk is exactly why SR is the coolest RPG IMHO. That being said, there are a few points that needs to be considered. Firstly from what i have seen from other topics, many people tend to be more generous with the karma awards than with the monetary rewards, this invariably favors awakened characters, as mages and shamans tend to have more need of karma than money, while deckers, riggers and sammies have a great need of money for their tools. Second - 3 mages in one group? Now i tend to let players play what they want, but i wouldn't allow that. I would allow a maximum of two awakened in a single group, including adepts. Remember as GM's you have final say and it has to be fun for you too. I would only allow that many awakened characters if magic was to be the overiding focus of the campaign, and if it is, that means magical opposition ofcourse, then it all balances itself out nicely. Thirdly there seems to be alot of people, that thinks that a sammie should only be a combat monster - what gives? If i were to make a sammy character i would certainly be more versatile in my skill selection, remember you are not required to spend the A priority fx. on any thing specific, i would spend less on ware and more on skills, new ware can be aquired. And should it really be a big deal if you have 4d6 or 3d6 for your initiative, not for a beginning character it shouldn't, what should be a big deal is how much you are able to influence the game and skill versatility will let you influence the game much more than an extra d6 for initiative unless your game is built around combat, mine aren't so i might be biased ofcourse. |
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Sep 1 2003, 06:53 AM
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#61
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,222 Joined: 11-October 02 From: Netherlands and Belgium Member No.: 3,437 |
I disagree there Reth, about limiting the number of Awakeneds. You end up showing favoritism in the player's eyes.
A good GM works around the players, not forces the players to his view. If I ran a game and got 3 people playing something Awakened (actually quite common in our games), then I plan my game around that, meaning it auto-becomes a focus of the campaign. Right now I play in a game with 4 mundanes (a rigger/decker, 2 sammies, and a Merc), 2 Adepts, 2 Shamans, and a MagicianAdept. So, 5 of 9 are Awakened. It's the best game I've ever been in. Sphynx |
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Sep 1 2003, 07:36 AM
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#62
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
So... what's so unbalancing about that? Being able to fly or turn invisible are great advantages, but they are not enough, by themselves, to completely negate corporate security. The armor spell is useful, but it is not considered hardened armor, so all it can do is lower your Target Number for resisting damage to 2. You can still die from a streetline special. Sustaining foci are also vulnerable to astral attack when activated, and need to be deactivated in order to pass wards without alerting the security mage. Now, as far as the GM being "unrealistic" in using magic to counter magic, keep in mind that the corporations know that magic is powerful. They have passed draconian laws regulating and suppressing magic, while recruiting the best and the brightest to their ranks. Magic is relatively rare in the general populance, but not so at corporate installations. And magic oppostion should be common at the level runners operate at - it is part of the game balance. Mages need to carefully allocate dice for spellcasting, resisting Drain, and spell defence. If they can safely ignore the latter, then they have that much extra dice. Magical opponents should at least be common enough that PC mages make a habit of allocating some dice for spell defence. Imbalance comes about when GMs limit certain types of characters over others, or give certain types of characters too many advantages. If it is a cash-heavy campaign where the characters have access to a Delta clinic, the sammies will quickly turn into monsters. If it is a stingy but karma-heavy campaign, then the adept will be looking at his ninth initiation while the sammie is contemplating finally upgrading his Wired: 1 to Wired: 2. If sammies are allowed to start out with cyberware and bioware with 8 or less Availability (in other words, as per the standard rules), they can be extremely tough, even if you don't let them start out with any cultured bioware. |
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Sep 1 2003, 06:21 PM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,632 |
I wrote a really long reply, but I deleted it because I realize 80+% of what I was saying has been covered in the many long and excellent replies already here.
I would like to address my initial point about imbalance. Let me attempt to clarify, and perhap's you'll see what I meant. In a standard, or close to standard shadowrun campaign. With decent, but not insanely low or high payouts, something close to the companion, but probably higher (probably even double+ depending on adventure). A wide variety of runs, including a decent amount of legwork. Standard opposition, not favoring any one type or nature (awakened, non awakened, ect), based on the nature of the run. Now, take a full shaman/mage, and compare it to a Street Samurai/Merc/Company man in this sort of campaign. The mage is EASILY 3+ times as powerful - he's useful for so many aspects of so many missions, whereas the combat character is more an issurance policy against ambush's and crazy combats... I'm not speaking from theory here. I've played in many campaigns like this, run by various gm's, some who liked magic, some who didn't, some with houserules, some without. The only thing that stayed constant was the exponetially higher usefullness and fun of the full mage, compared to a combat cybered character. Is it worth having a Sam around for the 10% of shit hitting the fan? Absolutely. Is the Sam largely dead weight 75% of most runs? Absolutely. Am I bitter about the overall power, growth, and versatility of full mages? Absolutely. I appologize for insulting you Talondel, that was uncalled for. On a closing note, take a look at the most favorite character types thread. Its something like 50% mages/shamans, 30% adepts, 12% sams. There's a reason for this. Magic in shadowrun is Special, Incredibly Powerful, Able to grow well in ANY game, since all you need is karma, no limit to growth, the only thing able to deal with other magic, able to deal with mundanes anywhere from almost as good as mundanes to better (see: manabolt troll sam). When you add up all the factors, magic in shadowrun may be functional and fun, but please don't come here and tell me its balanced. Curugul |
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Sep 1 2003, 06:45 PM
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#64
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
Then I'd suggest that the Sams learn some other skills than just combat and gun related stuff so they're a bit more versatile and not just standing there.
Well that's assuming that you've got the oodles of karma to do all that. I can think of very few games I ever played where the magicians weren't always grumbling or muttering about how they could spend/use more karma. :) And on manabolting trolls, all well and good. Although if the opposition is just walking around with no magical protection I'd say that's more something to talk to the GM about since by itself magic is powerful, thus needing a counter.
Sorry, but as a number of people have already made clear, they do disagree with you that magic is unbalanced. Just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong because of it. |
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Sep 1 2003, 06:58 PM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
You keep saying make everything even, the Mage will win and be more usfull in a lot more roles, then compare him to a specialized character. I have seen games where the "sam" has all the electronics, B/R, and computer, B/R. Doing 90% on a run. With Bear shaman, being the dead weight, becasue they wouldn't fight, or had no way to fight, and rarly wanted to heal people because the TN for healing a sam is crazy. I have seen many cases where the sams and riggers and deckers kick the ass of mages. When someone specializes they do become less usefull in other fields. I have a mage who is specialized in sneaking, he is super at it, but if a fight breaks out he'll die in first round. When it is time to drive, I'll crash just pulling out of the lot. But he can do a little decking, electronics warfare, and sneak just about any where. So if your "sams" in your games only do combat and allow the mage to pick up the slack, then that is the mages fault. My mage wouldn't whip up spells evertime a door needed opening or combat broke out. Everytime you throw a spell it leaves behind a astral signature for Force * hours. And if you want to clean that you have to basically recast the spell, and that only reduces the time by 1 hour*success. Everytime a mage throws a spell he takes the chance at hurting himself and leaving behind a link to him. You can always steal the mages Foci, once they leave his person they no longer work all his foci can be quit useless with a brave sam around. I don't know anything about your games but mages pose no more a problem to us then a well equiped sam. We have had games with 10 or 15 people playing and the only magic in the group was a (1) physical adept. Sure sometimes a mage can be super powerful but I get hurt by sams alot more then the mages do.
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Sep 1 2003, 06:59 PM
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#66
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,632 |
[QUOTE] Sorry, but as a number of people have already made clear, they do disagree with you that magic is unbalanced. Just because they disagree with you doesn't make them wrong because of it. [QUOTE] Right. So magic is balanced because you are *forced* to keep it in check with the enemies broke magic. And let me ask you, personally FlakJacket. In usefulness and the amount of power added to the team... How would you rate a Street Samurai (not covert ops), and a Full Shaman, on a scale of 1-10, assuming both are 50ish karma. Personally, I'd say the Sam's a 2, Full Shaman 10. Full mages are easily 3+ times as powerful and versatile as any mundane combat archetype. Its very similar to Fighters compared to Sorcerors/Clerics in D&D at high levels. Theres just no balance, and nothing anyone has wrote here has convinced me otherwise. Curugul |
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Sep 1 2003, 08:37 PM
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#67
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
forced? no, but you can be dam sure that whatever a runner can trow at a corp the corp can trow back with intrest :)
sure the mages get powerful on higher level, thats how they have allways been in any game. old people that knowmore then they should about things best left alone :) the question is how fast they get there... |
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Sep 2 2003, 01:07 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 28-July 03 Member No.: 5,133 |
There a whole lot of crack flying around this thread.
Sams are useless? Get new Sams, if I had 1 karma for every time my Sam pulls my ass out of the fire I'd be a grade 12 initiate by now. If mages are out of control in your game, I suggest your GM exercise some of that phenomenal cosmic power of his... Sunday. |
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Sep 2 2003, 05:05 AM
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#69
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 7-August 03 Member No.: 5,347 |
Curugul: There is something wrong with the way you ask the question!!! You state that a mage is 3 times as powerfull as a sammy, ok so far, but then you attach the asumption that the mage has made sure to be versatile in skills and magic whereas the sammy is completely specialised in the combat area. The only answer to that statement is that ofcourse the mage will influence the run more and thereby be considered more powerfull. BUT that does not prove that the mage is more powerfull because of magic, but rather because of his versatility. Now if you turned it around, with the mage being specialised in only combat fx. but the the sammy purchased all sorts of skills at character generation and have continued to develop them, is the mage still the most powerfull? NO, not in the ability to influence the run, in this version of the question it would indeed be the mage who would only be usefull about 10-15% of the time. The problem is that you assume that one character is versatile by nature while the other is not. I don't believe this to be true and in all the SR games i have played in both as GM and player, never once have i encountered a sammy that was only good for combat, and consequently they contribute just as much to the run as the mage. This is ofcourse not written in stone everytime, since runs tend to fluctuate in their focus, but seen overall it pretty much evens out. If you want the question to have validity then the assumption must be, that both characters are versatile by nature, which is the reason that SR doesn't have character classes. Then you can ask the question whether the mage is more powerfull than a mundane character such as a sammy.
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Sep 2 2003, 05:55 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
Two words. Astral signature.
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Sep 2 2003, 06:30 AM
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#71
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I propose that "broke magic" is only necessary to counter "broke magic". If the PCs are min-maxing, so will the NPCs. I also remind you that 1% of the population is magical, and the inherent value of magic skews the proportion of awakened in any setting a shadowrunner is likely to encounter. That's a lot of people. Having magical opposition is only weird if having magical shadowrunners is weird. |
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Sep 2 2003, 07:09 AM
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#72
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 3-April 03 Member No.: 4,376 |
Well although the thread title refers to mages' abilities in general, the poll refers to the way in which they gain new spells.
From what i have been reading and thinking, one of the problems stated with mages is that they can kick ass in combat while also having the verstality in other tasks. This is were i think the poll's title come in. If mages didn't earn new spells so fast they wouldn't be that versatile. |
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Sep 2 2003, 05:23 PM
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#73
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,632 |
Completely agree. The ability to learn Influence force 6 for 6 karma is INCREDIBLE utility for karma spent. No other character, certainly not a mundane, can grow in versatility and power that fast. In fact, I think you're on to something here. If spells cost more to gain, i'd have a lot less problems with mages in general. Reth - You have a valid point. I am comparing pure combat specialist Cybered characters to mages. I agree, this tends to skew things, however, there is a reason I compare this way. To my experience, combat is where cyber shines most. Sure, there are a few nifty tricks for a covert ops/more versatile cybered character, and yes they help; but its an uphill battle all the way. The problem tends to be growth. A mage drops 12 karma for 3 force 4 spells, you drop 12 karma for +1 demolitions. Secondly, in my experience for a mage to be specialized in battle it costs him an order of magnitude LESS than a Sam or Adept who desires combat power, both in karma and nuyen spent. Even so, perhap's I'm not seeing the big picture: Could you give me some examples of versatile sams and the skills/abilities they used to make them compare to a full mage? Thanks Curugul |
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Sep 2 2003, 07:28 PM
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#74
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Direct limiting factors to magician spell strength and increase in number/Force of spells:
Karma sinks * Sorcery skill * Magic Theory (or similar) skill * Karma for individual spells. Higher Force spells down the road effectively waste karma spent on the lower-Force version earlier. Nuyen sinks * Force of library * Storage for said library if owned (10% of library cost based on desktop computer memory costs, significantly more for laptop or wrist computers) Time sinks * Time to learn them. (The case described at the beginning is very much an exception.) * Time to cast them. Influence (like the various healing spells) is a permanent spell - requires multiple combat turns to sustain before it comes into effect. What is the street samurai doing in all that time? And that's only for spellcasting alone. What of conjuring, enchanting, initiation? What of foci? What of familiars and bound elementals and bargains with free spirits? (For some reason it's always the magician who ends up paying the karma there.) What of the centring skill and its linked artistic/meditative/performative skill? What of other magical knowledge skills? What of magicians who might want to improve a few other basic skills and attributes, like, I don't know, BD? Stealth? Pistols? Athletics? |
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Sep 2 2003, 07:57 PM
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#75
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Try this comparison, then.
Let's take an information specialist mage, and an information-specialist mundane with cyber, and see how they stack up. The mage has some very strong edges, inasmuch as he can use Detection Magic, astral perception, and spirits and watchers as intelligence sources. So, the concept is quite powerful, and can do some things that cyber and technology cannot. Which is all well and good, characters would be boring if they all were the same. However, the techie has some edges all his own. He may not be able to summon freebie watchers, but a datajack and an RCD is enough for him to operate a huge drone network. The drone rigger not only can send his drones out to patrol and report, but he can recieve intel from them instantly, something only allies can do. With sensors, he can potentially detect things that a mage can't, over a greater range; and with or without BattleTac IVIS and FDDM, he can coordinate them much more precicely. He can also deck, which is a serious edge. Also, the techie can have download all this info into headware memory, which costs so much essence most mages won't have enough. On the *really* heavy-duty end, a mundane may just have a tactical computer, which would give him the edge in spades. Where the techie really excells, however, is in disseminating that information. If he acts as a communication hub, his team can benefit from all real-time intel he collects. BattleTac just makes this trick that much easier. All of this is well-within the reach of a starting techie, but impossible for a mage to handle. (Well, all of this excepting the Tactical computer.) What's more, there's still plenty of room for a reflex-augmentor and a smartlink, plus a firearm skill or two. Add in enhanced articulation and some muscle toner, and you've got a light sam who can rig, deck, and run communications. Add Electronics and Electronics B/R specialized in security systems, (plus Stealth, which is mandatory for all shadowrunners) and you've got a good B&E character. Thus, even a specialized mage can't really beat a cybered character in their specialties. And even in a more generalized sense, a heavy sam can still take on ettiquette skills, biotech skills, and techie skills; the mage is going to be more focused on Conjuring, Sorcery, and other Magical skills. As the game progresses, a mage is going to be consuming karma in order to initiate and learn spells, as well as trying to learn and improve skills and attributes. He'll eventually pick up Centering and improve his Enchanting skill, for one. A sam, however, can spend all that karma on just skills and attributes-- for the cost of two initiations and a force-6 spell, a sam can easily pick up a totally new skill at level 5. But to go back to one of your original points-- yes, a team with magic is going to stomp all over a team without, all other things being equal. As well they should; a team with a combat monster will likely stomp all over a team without, all other things being equal. Magic is powerful, but it's not the 800-pound gorilla of Shadowrun. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 23rd October 2025 - 05:30 PM |
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