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> New Grenade Houserules (Chunky Salsa Remixed), Alternative Grenade rules, keeping 'em deadly but not ridiculous.
Flaser
post Aug 11 2013, 05:59 PM
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This thread is based on the off-shoot discussion about grenades in the following thread:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39482

Let's face it: Grenades do ridiculous damage in enclosed spaces thanks to the Chunky Salsa rule. However the rule's effects are often so over the top, I'd call it a "bug" that has grown into a feature... and it's especially buggy, because frag grenades actually work better than HE (high explosive) ones, when it should be the other way around.

So here are some new rules that try to model grenade mechanics more true to life *without* getting bogged down. I've set out to match my model to the rough figures given in Gary's U.S. Infantry Weapons Reference Guide:
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantr...enade/hand.html

Starting figures:
*Casualty radius for frag grenades is about 15 meters, kill radius is 5 meters.
*Casualty radius for offensive grenades is about 2 meters, no kill radius is given.
*I'd consider 4-6 Dmg. casualty damage, 10 damage lethal damage.

Frag Grenades:
*Frag grenades have DV falloff of -1/m (unchanged), starting DV 18P(f) (unchanged)
*Frag grenades don't use the new chunky salsa rules

Alternative rule: treat frag grenades, as a 6P HE grenade and a 18P(f) frag grenade with victims suffering whichever damages them more but not both.

HE Grenades:
*HE grenades have DV falloff of -3/m (changed from -2/m), starting DV 16P (unchanged)
*HE blast ignores all non-sealed armor.
*Vehicles with intact passenger compartment are considered sealed.

New chunky salsa rules:
*Falloff reduced to -2/m, DV +15% (+2 DV for std. HE grenade) if >50% of the blast is contained by solid obstacles within 3m. (E.g. solid floor and roof, explosion next to one solid wall but no roof)
*Falloff reduced to -1/m, DV +30% (+5 DV for std. HE grenade) if >75% of the blast is contained by solid obstacles within 3m. (E.g. solid floor, roof and a single wall, in a corner, inside a tunnel)
*Falloff reduced to -1/m, DV +60% (+10 DV for std. HE grenade) if ~100% of the blast is contained by solid obstacles within 3m. (E.g. inside a small air-tight panic-room).
*Only obstacles that significantly thwart the movement of gases can impede the blast wave. (E.g. Runner inside a thick fridge with the door closed.)
*Otherwise the blast ignores even solid objects in its path and may strike targets behind cover. (E.g. Runner hiding in a cast iron bathtub *without* water in it).
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Slide
post Aug 11 2013, 06:48 PM
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so say contained to within 3M in all your chunky salsa examples
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Flaser
post Aug 11 2013, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 11 2013, 08:48 PM) *
so say contained to within 3M in all your chunky salsa examples


Skynet came up with the new chunky salsa rules and I think they more or less work, with the admitted problem that an explosion could be more destructive if it's closer to an obstacle rather than its target. 3 meters seems like a good ballpark estimate, granted if you're dealing with something with more BANG! than the obstacles could be further away and still count as enclosed space. If you have anything better in mind, I'm all ears... as long as the GM doesn't have to meticulously count wave-rebounds and do spherical/circle based pattern matching.
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Slide
post Aug 11 2013, 07:17 PM
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oh no, i was just confused by it. Hmm....

This might be a bit more dice rolling if you didn't all ready roll dice to see how much damage bariers take, but why not only have the damage that a barrier does not take rebound.

i.e. a drywall takes a 10p blast and after rollling structure ect. it takes 4 damage and the 6 is rebounded back for the chunkey salsa effect?
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Flaser
post Aug 11 2013, 07:30 PM
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QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 11 2013, 09:17 PM) *
oh no, i was just confused by it. Hmm....

This might be a bit more dice rolling if you didn't all ready roll dice to see how much damage bariers take, but why not only have the damage that a barrier does not take rebound.

i.e. a drywall takes a 10p blast and after rollling structure ect. it takes 4 damage and the 6 is rebounded back for the chunkey salsa effect?


Because the whole point of these rules is not to deal with rebounds et all, beside applying a flat DV value and reduced DV falloff. Rebound rules are plagued by a myriad issues, some of them are geometric, others are gameplay related, namely putting a huge workload on everyone while using grenades, finally they lead to absurd situations, as the number of surfaces in your immediate area somehow magical boost dmg. vs. the real world phenomenon where only the *degree* of enclosure counts.

With the new rules, the GM makes a fast ruling on whether the explosion has 50%, 75% or close to 100% containment, adjusts DV and falloff and he's done.

Explosion effects on barriers is unchanged, so the poor bastard in the bathtub will not only have his lung torn to pulp by the blast, but might also have to deal with shrapnel from the tub if the explosion tears through and the GM still has to determine which obstacles will hold up to the blast (i.e. most inner office walls made of plaster won't). Still any GM worth his salt will quickly rule out most materials as either holding up or not, and will only have to consult the material tables in a handful of cases.
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Vegetaman
post Aug 11 2013, 08:18 PM
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Yet again why you should never use grenades in Shadowrun inside an apartment. Unless you are not also in the room.
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Slide
post Aug 11 2013, 08:22 PM
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QUOTE (Vegetaman @ Aug 11 2013, 03:18 PM) *
Yet again why you should never use grenades in Shadowrun inside an apartment. Unless you are not also in the room.

If the target of your gernade is in the same room as you, you did it wrong.
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Umidori
post Aug 11 2013, 10:47 PM
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Grenades in SR need to be lethal. They're military devices, intended for use in warfare, not street combat.

Consequently, grenades in 2075 are going to be even deadlier than modern grenades, because they need to be able to blow through Milspec Full Body Armor. With SR5 frag grenades doing 16P max, and Full Body Armor having an armor of 15, they only just are able to deal Physical damage against their intended targets when those targets are directly on top of the grenade.

Just make grenades more expensive and less available and they'll be totally balanced. The only reason anyone complains about this is because Runners have too easy of a time getting a hold of and using these high explosives that they can hide in their coats. Meanwhile, no one complains about Runners abusing shotguns, mortars, missiles, and assault cannons, because they aren't dirt cheap, they're hard to find, and you can't easily conceal them.

~Umi
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Flaser
post Aug 11 2013, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 12 2013, 12:47 AM) *
Grenades in SR need to be lethal. They're military devices, intended for use in warfare, not street combat.

Consequently, grenades in 2075 are going to be even deadlier than modern grenades, because they need to be able to blow through Milspec Full Body Armor. With SR5 frag grenades doing 16P max, and Full Body Armor having an armor of 15, they only just are able to deal Physical damage against their intended targets when those targets are directly on top of the grenade.

Just make grenades more expensive and less available and they'll be totally balanced.

~Umi


I thought about giving frag grenades an AP falloff value, but I didn't want to overtly complicate the houserules.

You could give frag grenades an AP of -6 and AP falloff of -3/m. This models that near the explosion (1-2 meters) the shrapnel has enough momentum to tear through even body armor, but father away (as it goes subsonic) it has less and less penetration force.
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Slithery D
post Aug 11 2013, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 11 2013, 06:47 PM) *
With SR5 frag grenades doing 16P max, and Full Body Armor having an armor of 15, they only just are able to deal Physical damage against their intended targets when those targets are directly on top of the grenade.


Not after the armor code adjustment for frags, they can't.
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Umidori
post Aug 12 2013, 01:41 AM
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Huh. I also misremembered the damage. 18P, +5 AP. Hrrm.

Let me get back to you on that.

Edit: I was thinking High Explosive grenades, which can and do beat out Full Body Armor.

~Umi
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Smash
post Aug 12 2013, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 12 2013, 08:47 AM) *
Grenades in SR need to be lethal. They're military devices, intended for use in warfare, not street combat.


Isn't the issue not so much how lethal they are but rather how unavoidable they are?

'I throw a grenade at your feet and get 1 success, you can't dodge and take 16P as well as all your mates within 10m (well they all take different damage)'

I know this is probably realistic but it doesn't make the player feel any better when they get insta-jibbed without even getting a roll.

As written I have no idea how to use them. As much as I don't want my playes being insta-slain by them I also don't want then throwing these things around willy nilly and making short work of all the opposition.

To me there should be a dodge roll somewhere which as an abstraction makes the grenade scatter harmlessly, detonate of a barrier or just be a dud. Maybe it could apply a dodge benalty like full auto or a choked shotgun?
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Umidori
post Aug 12 2013, 05:02 AM
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QUOTE (Smash @ Aug 11 2013, 08:56 PM) *
Isn't the issue not so much how lethal they are but rather how unavoidable they are?

'I throw a grenade at your feet and get 1 success, you can't dodge and take 16P as well as all your mates within 10m (well they all take different damage)'

You need 3 successes to land it land it without scatter. And even then, people have a chance to react to the grenade.

A "Timed" Grenade takes slightly longer than an entire Combat Turn to detonate, so a pinpoint throw can still be "dodged" by running away from it, or even throwing it back at the original sender.

An "Impact" Grenade explodes where it lands on a successful toss, but on a failure scatters before exploding. If the attacker glitches it suffers double scatter and then explodes. A critical glitch means it blows up in your hand. There's also a weird mention of how with this setting, if the attacker gets no net hits the grenade misses, which would mean you need to beat the scatter threshold of 3, and not just meet it, requiring 4 hits on an attack test.

A "Wireless" Grenade explodes when it receives a wireless command, which means you can set it off on your next IP/Action Phase, but you can also have your grenade get hacked and blown up before you ever throw it.

You almost always have some defensive recourse when dealing with grenades. They're much more fair than Sniper Rifles, for example.

~Umi
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Smash
post Aug 12 2013, 05:39 AM
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QUOTE (Umidori @ Aug 12 2013, 03:02 PM) *
You need 3 successes to land it land it without scatter. And even then, people have a chance to react to the grenade.

A "Timed" Grenade takes slightly longer than an entire Combat Turn to detonate, so a pinpoint throw can still be "dodged" by running away from it, or even throwing it back at the original sender.

An "Impact" Grenade explodes where it lands on a successful toss, but on a failure scatters before exploding. If the attacker glitches it suffers double scatter and then explodes. A critical glitch means it blows up in your hand. There's also a weird mention of how with this setting, if the attacker gets no net hits the grenade misses, which would mean you need to beat the scatter threshold of 3, and not just meet it, requiring 4 hits on an attack test.

A "Wireless" Grenade explodes when it receives a wireless command, which means you can set it off on your next IP/Action Phase, but you can also have your grenade get hacked and blown up before you ever throw it.

You almost always have some defensive recourse when dealing with grenades. They're much more fair than Sniper Rifles, for example.

~Umi


Ok, but that's only slightly better. Now they have to depend on the attacker missing rather than actively avoiding (Can't the thrower wait until the 2nd or third IP to throw the grenade against non-wired targets to get them on the next IP?).

A grenade monkey will average 4 hits at creation, not to mention that scatter probably has as much chance of being worse for the target than better.

Maybe I'll just ban airburst grenades.............
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Umidori
post Aug 12 2013, 06:04 AM
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Or maybe just make grenades... I dunno... expensive and hard to get? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

If you're worried about your players abusing grenades, make them have to hustle to get a hold of them. They'll be a lot less liable to use and abuse grenades if they have to work harder and spend more cash to get them. And if that doesn't stop them from chucking the damn things at every opportunity, then have their opposition react accordingly. If the runners use air-burst grenades, have their weapons get hacked! If they use grenades on every mission, have it draw a lot of heat as the police come under pressure to crack down on the spike in criminal violence that your runners are causing. If they routinely leave a building-wide smear of salsafied corpses behind, make sure they get a reputation among Johnsons for their excessive force and lack of delicacy.

Heck, start tailoring the runs to combat grenade usage. Have more encounters in close quarters, where grenade usage becomes much more dangerous for the runners. Have them perform an extraction or a rescue where the use of grenades would likely result in killing the target they're being paid to collect. Maybe send them on a datasteal and have them get ambushed in the server room. Make their collateral damage matter, give them a reason to avoid just painting the walls red, if they really need one.

And if it ultimately comes down to it, you can always have the opposition start chucking grenades as well. Give the players some warning though - have the players intercept a Knight Errant memo or communique describing how increased criminal usage of grenades has resulted in an arsenal upgrade for local HTR teams, who will now be fielding improved body armor and are now authorized to employ their own grenades for the time being, to help combat the immediate threat. Or heck, put it out a news trideo broadcast that the players overhear on the streets or at their favorite bar or where ever else, talking about KE's controversial decision to go on High Alert until the notorious "Mad Bombers" that have been all over the news lately are "apprehended".

If they don't realize that just maybe they shouldn't be abusing grenades by this point, feel free to have one of them eat a pineapple and be forced to burn Edge to pull through.

~Umi
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Flaser
post Aug 12 2013, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Smash @ Aug 12 2013, 07:39 AM) *
Ok, but that's only slightly better. Now they have to depend on the attacker missing rather than actively avoiding (Can't the thrower wait until the 2nd or third IP to throw the grenade against non-wired targets to get them on the next IP?).

A grenade monkey will average 4 hits at creation, not to mention that scatter probably has as much chance of being worse for the target than better.

Maybe I'll just ban airburst grenades.............


If the PC are playing hardball, 'causing widespread destruction and mayhem, have the authorities step up their game. The reason real criminals don't use grenades is because lunatics who use such tactics get hounded like the terror they are.

For instance, instead regular KE Errant goons, have something like an old Lone Star, Fast Response Team show up. They packed the following: *twelve* officers in heavy armor, fully active helmet (meaning vision mods, often TAC-net), shock-gloves, stun batons, Colt Manhunter or Ruger Thunderbolt sidearms, main armament being H&K submachine guns, all smartlinked, two carrying AUG assault rifles, one carrying a combat shotgun and finally a MA 2100 sniper rifle... that is if they're packing "standard" loadout. If the drek was bad or they get word, they could swap out the SMGs for ARs with grenade launchers, the sniper rifle with a freaking assault gun, the shotgun with a 6PAK minigun on a gryomount.

You might think... OK, that's some heavy metal, so what? There's *nothing* standard about FRT... they were called in when the regular boys in blue were up to their eyeballs in drek and bleeding out. A lot of 'em pack wares, not just the *usual* combo of smartlink+wired reflexes, some are mystic adepts and add the occasional shaman "just" for spice, they might have physical adepts and even the mundane members might be protected by quickened spells.
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Slide
post Aug 12 2013, 05:10 PM
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I have to agree with the point that grenades aren't standard for criminals, law enforcement, and shadowrunners alike. They are a tool of war, and throwing one should bring a war down upon you.
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LordlierPie
post Aug 12 2013, 05:30 PM
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thinking about this a little more, wouldnt it be easier to just limit the distance an explosion goes? for instance, he Causalty range of a HE grenade is given as 2m so that leaves me wondering why the blast would bounce off a wall 3-4m away and return. doing it that way, you only get 1-2 bounces limiting the Tac-Nuke potential in building.
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Flaser
post Aug 12 2013, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (LordlierPie @ Aug 12 2013, 07:30 PM) *
thinking about this a little more, wouldnt it be easier to just limit the distance an explosion goes? for instance, he Causalty range of a HE grenade is given as 2m so that leaves me wondering why the blast would bounce off a wall 3-4m away and return. doing it that way, you only get 1-2 bounces limiting the Tac-Nuke potential in building.


No, no... lemme 1/2 my IQ and distill my feelings: Bounces = BAD! Too much math = BAD! Simple rules, me LIKE! Complex rules BOO!

OK, joke aside the rules I proposed still need some book-keeping, but it should be drastically less than having to calculate shock-wave bounces (which is more or less a *per* surface affair).
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Tzeentch
post Aug 13 2013, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Flaser @ Aug 11 2013, 05:59 PM) *
Let's face it: Grenades do ridiculous damage in enclosed spaces thanks to the Chunky Salsa rule. However the rule's effects are often so over the top, I'd call it a "bug" that has grown into a feature... and it's especially buggy, because frag grenades actually work better than HE (high explosive) ones, when it should be the other way around.

Shadowrun grenades do ridiculous damage even without Chunky Salsa. HE grenades do assault cannon damage in a one meter radius, and assault rifle damage out another 4 meters. Fragmentation grenades are even more absurd against unarmored targets, able do the same damage as an assault rifle at 10 meters.

Oh, stun grenades are also crazy (10S damage to 64 feet diameter area?!), but let's focus on the frag and HE grenades:

Here's my fixes:

Fragmentation: Change to 8P (f)
High explosive: Change to 6P, Blast to -1/m

Change Blasts in a Confined Space to:
When a grenade detonates in a confined space, such as a hallway or room, the gamemaster must first determine whether any barriers (usually walls) stood firm against the explosion. If the radius of the explosion would reach the boundaries of the room and still have a Damage Value of at least 1, then consult the Destroying Barriers rules (p. 197). If the walls or doors hold up, the blast is channeled and the Damage Value of the grenade is doubled. Otherwise, determine blast effects normally.
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Smash
post Aug 13 2013, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (Slide @ Aug 13 2013, 03:10 AM) *
I have to agree with the point that grenades aren't standard for criminals, law enforcement, and shadowrunners alike. They are a tool of war, and throwing one should bring a war down upon you.


Aren't we losing sight a bit though of the world of 2075? Shadowrun has always been a game of gangers speeding down highways and shooting at each other with rocket launchers. I'm thinking that at least system wise grenade and explosives usage from criminals is fairly commonplace.

Yes, it is a good point that there will be some scenarios where grenades won't be advised (such as extraction missions, delicate environments or lots of civilians) but there will be plenty of other scenarios where this is not the case. What about in the barrens? How long would it be before KE turns up to grenade use there? Would they come at all?

Setting and plot point counters aside, I still don't like how a character/NPC is pretty much auto-dead when someone with airburst link rolls 3 hits. The roll needs to be opposed. What about a dive for cover reaction which loses you 5 to 10 initiative?
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Umidori
post Aug 13 2013, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE (Smash @ Aug 12 2013, 08:22 PM) *
Aren't we losing sight a bit though of the world of 2075? Shadowrun has always been a game of gangers speeding down highways and shooting at each other with rocket launchers. I'm thinking that at least system wise grenade and explosives usage from criminals is fairly commonplace.

I dunno about you, but I don't recall Shadowrun always having been like that.

How many gangers can realistically afford/manage to steal rocket launchers? And how many of them survive/escape jailtime immediately after using them?

Most Shadowrunnering takes place in cities like Seattle, not Mega-City One.

~Umi
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 13 2013, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Aug 12 2013, 06:31 PM) *
Shadowrun grenades do ridiculous damage even without Chunky Salsa. HE grenades do assault cannon damage in a one meter radius, and assault rifle damage out another 4 meters. Fragmentation grenades are even more absurd against unarmored targets, able do the same damage as an assault rifle at 10 meters.

Oh, stun grenades are also crazy (10S damage to 64 feet diameter area?!), but let's focus on the frag and HE grenades:

Here's my fixes:

Fragmentation: Change to 8P (f)
High explosive: Change to 6P, Blast to -1/m


At those levels, Grenades would never kill anyone. Ever. *shrug*
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