[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I shoot, therefore I am. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Vos surculus proinde vos es? Hmmmmmmmmmmm... Intersting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[BigGreenSquid]

Your initial statement about morals requiring a "God" or another supernatural entity is still wrong. You distinguish ethics vs. morality by saying that one is man-made, another "natural". Even if morals are natural, the requirement of God is not implicit in this statement, unless you subscribe to a theist world-view where *everything* does. I could quote Dawkins and he'd quote research on primates, but I think we're going *very* off-topic. So the gist of what I'm saying: don't be so sure of stuff taught in school, especially the humanities. By its nature these areas of study are riddled with bias. (Cultural, religious, etc... then there's your range of biases that's part of our physiology, like the observer bias, etc).

The one area of the catalog with the most overlap to my pre-law degree was philosophy, so with only picking up two classes that didn't overlap I was able to get a philosophy degree as well. Furthermore, I did not go to a religious institution, very far from it.

I am saying that one is man made (think Confucianism) the other would be of super-natural origin. Ethics should for the most part have some logical consistency, there is not the same requirement of morality.

Finally I did not bring theology into this, but I can google well enough to find the appropriate scripture.

[Wakshaani]

Just be careful with the footsteps, Squid. I'm always down for a philosophical debate (Woo, I get to use a minor!) buuuuut, the site tends to be unhappy with religion or political questions, so, you know... just saying. (Some of the mods are off at GenCon, otherwise they'd probably have wagged a finger already.)

Darn shame. Wonder if we could ask for a section to be set aside for metaphysics? Of course, then you open some unhappy meals.

[BlackJaw]

Back on topic:

I imagine the frequency of Wires over Education/Training among corp employees/citizens says something about the corp. I picture the Transhumanist Evo using a lot more chipped workers than say Ares, with it's quasi-American faux-individualist vibe, although I may be interpreting Ares's style a bit wrong there.

How do you think the big 10 make use of Skill Wires? I seem to recall Unwired talked about this a bit.

[Tzeentch]

SR5 skillwires are x10 the cost of SR4. And you need more support hardware, as a skilljack is now required, which doubles the cost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The cost increase should change the ground rules for a skillsoft workforce (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit:
SR4A:
* Rating 3 Activesoft 30,000¥
* Rating 3 Skillwire 6,000¥ (0.6 Essence)

SR5:
* Rating 3 Activesoft 15,000¥
* Rating 3 Skilljack 60,000¥ (0.3 Essence)
* Rating 3 Skillwire 60,000¥ (0.3 Essence)

[BigGreenSquid]

Just be careful with the footsteps, Squid.

Not trying to step on toes, hell, wasn't even the one who brought religion into the conversation, nor have a made any religious argument one way or another. I have also kept this a purely academic conversation, without whining (how do you know I am not an objectivist as I do think that the Virtue of Selfishness is a must read for any SR GM).

When looking at these corporations, rather than making them one dimensional "evil capitalist" which might work in at a table of middle-schoolers, I do try and develop a general business culture/philosophy for them. How a company hires/treats/trains should reflective of its business culture/philosophy.

[quentra]

Considering this is a cyberpunk dystopia and the nickname for corporate employees is wageslaves...Not well. Maybe Horizon provides subsidized Matrix and trid access to its wageslaves, maybe Ares offers free self-defense training and maybe the Japanacorps might have a *gasp* pension system of some sort. It doesn't change the fact that they're wageslaves.

[shinryu]

Considering this is a cyberpunk dystopia and the nickname for corporate employees is wageslaves...Not well. Maybe Horizon provides subsidized Matrix and trid access to its wageslaves, maybe Ares offers free self-defense training and maybe the Japanacorps might have a *gasp* pension system of some sort. It doesn't change the fact that they're wageslaves.

one thing i've never been 100% clear on is who ends up being a "corporate citizen" (and presumably treated like a human being) and who is a wageslave. is it the sort of thing where a few Ares "citizens" are the managers at a subsidary staffed by UCAS citizens (who are therefore not Ares's problem re: healthcare or minimum wage), or where those UCAS peons are granted "work visas" to work on Ares extraterritorial property (and are again not Ares's problem re: benefits as they are foreign nationals subject to the provisions of the work visa agreements with the UCAS )? or is it more like everybody's a citizen, it's just some animals are more equal than others? if you view megas as much more like countries, the second option seems like the more likely choice. if you see them more as businesses, trends towards outsourcing seem to make the first option more likely. it's probably not an either-or, obviously, but i do wonder what the more dominant model is.

athe whole legal status of extraterritorial properties is fascinating to consider. public places like the renraku arcology mall, that sort of thing, and extradition between rival corporations or countries. i've thought a lot about having a campaign based around a team that takes care of eliminating or extracting those taking refuge with rival megacorps or
countries if the corporate court is just taking too long to get it done. or if it's important that the extradition not happen. i could also see hilarious bidding wars between corporations for fugitives. say somebody absconds with an MCT trade secret to take to Evo, fucks up somehow, ends up taking refuge with Aztechnology. azzies don't give a shit about whatever it is, but they start a bidding war between MCT and Evo for who gets the refugee. good shadowrun opportunity.

[BigGreenSquid]

Considering this is a cyberpunk dystopia and the nickname for corporate employees is wageslaves...Not well.

Very true, it is a dystopia, more so for they players as they have fallen through the societal cracks. It is a dystopia for the SINless for sure, for the wageslave maybe, but probably not as much. This is after all Shadowrun not 1984. To me one of the greatest dystopic elements of Shadowrun is the disparity of treatment between the SINners and the SINless. The SINless can see the good life just on the other-side of that pane of glass, yet it is 1000 leagues away.

With the wage slave it is different. They do have food, housing, clothing, healthcare and entertainment... All for the low, low price of selling their soul to the company store. Sure they get a paycheck in corpscript, but at the end of the month they don't have anything to show for it.

One element I really wanted to hit my players with was the "house slave" effect. I want wageslaves who do not want to leave their corp. Would fight for it. They do not see the Shadowrunners as street heroes but as the terrorists the trid paints them as. While on their run the little guy is their enemy as sure as the Red Sam is. Everywhere they look are people eager to turn them in, they will find no help, comfort or shelter amongst the wageslaves.

[quentra]

The only difference I really see between SINned and SINless is that SINners have the chance to obtain a job, housing, credit, and police assistance. It's cyberpunk - the middle class is dead. You're either rich as all hell, a wageslave, or a non-person. Being a wageslave is significantly better than being SINless, but your quality of life is far lower than the middle-class now. (Unless you consider QoL to be higher since you could just plug yourself into VR all the live long day.)

Welfare is gone, the state serves only as a machine to funnel even more money into corporate pockets. Mind, if you're a corporate citizen, things are a bit better - instead of living in a crime-infested C or B-rated zone, you've got a relatively safe arcology. Of course, you can't quit, leave, or otherwise have freedom of movement - but on the plus side, arcologies tend to have lower amounts of thrill gangers aiming to kill and eat you just to see if the ghouls have a point.

[Wakshaani]

Not sure about Welfare. I'd lay good odds that it's still around in the UCAS, but not so much in the CAS. The governments still exist after all, even if they're *mostly* toothless. The corps keep 'em around to handle the things that they don't want to bother with, like listening to complaints about potholes. Welfare, for SINners only mind you, is something the corps are happy about since it keeps consumers alive. Food stamps = money for Agricorps, after all.

Now, the in-game situation beyond that will differ from table to table. Some love the RObocop world, where everyone's armed, gangs are omni-present, life is cheap, and violence is nearly comedic. Others like a Shadowrun close to modern day, while others an idealic society in a bubble (corp life) that hides the real world (everyone else) from sight.

You can go lots of different ways with it. Hey, YouTube, what've you got for me?

Ooo, Delta CIty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNmMzROLxI4

[quentra]

I don't see why you can't have both - corporate citizens do live in shielded bubbles, but the gangs really are omni-present on the streets and daily violence is worse than modern-day Caracas. That said, I can't see welfare being a thing - the idea that taxpayer money funds /something useful/ in a corporate feudalist setting seems unrealistic. The reason gangs are omni-present is because of the lack of a social safety net, in many areas, they are the social safety net, SINless or not. I can see some sort of corporate-sponsored 'charity' (funded with taxpayer subsidies), but not state-supported welfare.

I always try to play up what the lack of regulation does to a society - 70+ years of ethically unrestricted neurobiological research means that the corps have subliminal advertising down pat, and it's everywhere. Acid rain is more common than not, and the reason the sprawl goes from super-high tech in a AAA-zone to hell just by crossing into a C-zone is because there's no environmental regulation to keep pollution at bay at all. And that's in legal neighborhoods - you can barely /find/ an intact building in the Barrens. Dystopia is shitty - even where it looks nice, that's just the advertising blitz to keep you from seeing the blood and chrome staining the streets.

[shinryu]

Not sure about Welfare. I'd lay good odds that it's still around in the UCAS, but not so much in the CAS. The governments still exist after all, even if they're *mostly* toothless. The corps keep 'em around to handle the things that they don't want to bother with, like listening to complaints about potholes. Welfare, for SINners only mind you, is something the corps are happy about since it keeps consumers alive. Food stamps = money for Agricorps, after all.

Now, the in-game situation beyond that will differ from table to table. Some love the RObocop world, where everyone's armed, gangs are omni-present, life is cheap, and violence is nearly comedic. Others like a Shadowrun close to modern day, while others an idealic society in a bubble (corp life) that hides the real world (everyone else) from sight.

You can go lots of different ways with it. Hey, YouTube, what've you got for me?

Ooo, Delta CIty!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNmMzROLxI4

the idea of welfare still existing is one of the few reasons to even have a nation state exist, and if it's truly dead in the CAS that might (ironically, given arkansas) explain why nobody's managed to get a mega going there. as you point out, welfare becomes a way for the parasite megacorporation to extract money from the citizens of the nation; since they're effectively nation-states they are presumably exempt from having to pay those taxes themselves. it's also a reason to limit corporate citizenship as much as possible; you want as few people having citizenship as possible because the mechanism of taxation allows you to recoup significant amounts of the wage you pay non-citizens in the form of indirect transfer via taxation -> welfare -> buying your products. it's the circle of corruption, i mean, life. you may nearly recoup the cost of taking care of corporate citizens, but you can't ever really profit off it as such since nobody else is forced to feed into the mechanism.

on the other hand, a corp like azatlan is probably opposed to welfare insofar as azatechnology's policy of being both the de facto government and cartoonishly evil just for fun means that they are already recouping the bulk of their outlay to the citizenry since there are basically no other corporations in the country. what are you going to do, move? on the other hand, they've probably pushed for terms for the extraterritorial licenses for other corporations that involve a generous welfare tax. both discourages competitors from setting up shop and makes at least some of their profit come back to azatechnology. possibly directly, if the welfare system is corrupt enough. i'm willing to bet there are actually a number of azatlaner worker's unions that mysteriously only seem to ever form between the employees of ares businesses.

for what it's worth, i think ronin is probably the best shadowrun movie ever made. which is in itself an interesting point that may spawn a different thread shortly.

[Backgammon]

one thing i've never been 100% clear on is who ends up being a "corporate citizen" (and presumably treated like a human being) and who is a wageslave.

I think "wageslave" is a derogatory term used by the SINless. They armor themselves with it, looking at these people that have EVERYTHING - food, a warm home, more entertainment that they can manage, all the clothes they want. Materialism paradise. The SINless don't have it and can't have it. This is an important loss of the American Dream. No matter how hard they work or how much they want it, the SINless will never have a SIN and a comfortable life.

So what can a person do, but find arguments about how the other side isn't that desireable. Sure they have everything, but look, they are slaves. Wageslaves. What a bunch of poor idiots, toilng away for nothing at the end of the day. I don't want that! I'm not a slave! I may not have all they have, but I have my soul, and my dignity. Pass be another rat burger.

Of course, the truth lies in the middle. Both is true. The corp employee has everything he could desire, but only in exchange of his individuality and self-realization. He can never excel, can never be something great - he can only exist. Comfortably.

Which is best? Wageslave, or SINless? Truly, if you think about it, it's not an easy question. Both suck, both have advantages. But of course in Shadowrun, we take the side of the SINless, since it's a game where the heroes are from that side of the street. But if you think beyond that, it's not that simple.

[Sendaz]

SINnerRun™, where you play accountants and general office staff filing paperwork, chat around the watercooler and just try to make it to 5 o'clock to escape to the arcology housing units and catch the latest Urban Brawl game later over a cold near-beer.

More fun than a hole in the head!*







*Caution: Playing this may cause you to shoot yourself in the head.

[Wakshaani]

SINnerRun™, where you play accountants and general office staff filing paperwork, chat around the watercooler and just try to make it to 5 o'clock to escape to the arcology housing units and catch the latest Urban Brawl game later over a cold near-beer.

More fun than a hole in the head!*

*Caution: Playing this may cause you to shoot yourself in the head.

Five? You slacker! You put in your 12 hours a day/six days a week shift like the rest of us! Taking off three hours early for a sporting event? The nerve!
(Me? Oh, I'm putting in some unpaid overtime. It's an honor to dedicate myself to the bottom line!)

[Fiddler]

We just happened to be on the 2:30 am to 5pm shift you are the lazy one going to work at 9 and only working 12 hours

[Draco18s]

You slacker. A real worker gets to work at 9am and doesn't leave until 9am!

(Note: I've actually done this once and come close a second time).

[Fiddler]

Next you'll want lunch breaks and not to owe your soul to the company store, some people.