How to deal with Critter Concealment Power?, One of my players is playing a pixie (sapient critter) Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

In my game, any decently secured facility will have pressure sensors for exactly this reason. Invisible does not mean weightless. Yes, Concealment will make them harder to perceive visually, but the massive bonuses the guards get due to the computer telling them that there is a weight there that shouldn't be will overcome any penalties.

To help the OP:


Okay, so they can't see the pixie, but they can see the magic they pixie is casting? Allow me to present a scenario:

Guard 1: Hey, there's someone over there casting huge spells!
Guard 2: But I don't see anyone...
Guard 1: They must be using an invisibility spell! FILL THE AREA WITH BULLETS!
--both guards start using suppressing fire to make your pixie's life miserable--

Sadly, Concealment is not a Spell, and has no skill roll involved. And is thus not susceptible to being noticed like spellcasting is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Neko Asakami]

Ignore, double posted.

[Neko Asakami]

You misunderstood my post. The roll isn't to notice Concealment itself, but the spells the pixie will cast after activating Concealment.

Edit: Granted, it's a bit of a flimsy argument, but honestly it's enough of a loop hole to help.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You misunderstood my post. The roll isn't to notice Concealment itself, but the spells the pixie will cast after activating Concealment.

Edit: Granted, it's a bit of a flimsy argument, but honestly it's enough of a loop hole to help.

Sorry... That is very true indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

You misunderstood my post. The roll isn't to notice Concealment itself, but the spells the pixie will cast after activating Concealment.

Edit: Granted, it's a bit of a flimsy argument, but honestly it's enough of a loop hole to help.

The pixie still isn't hiding... he's out there in plain sight.

If I switch on astral perception there is a clearly living aura giving off a lot of light right in the middle of the sky. (remember on the astral living beings are light sources... the astral sky is dark since stars aren't living and normal light sources don't glow on the astral unless they're fireflies). Pretty much anything living and flying in the sky on the astral glows like a signal flare.

Concealment would help him if he was attempting to hide... but flying in the middle of the street isn't hiding spells or not.

Spells are clearly visible as well on the astral. So if he has masking and is trying to look like a bird on the astral... a bird with a ton of spell auras on it is going to put up massive red flags to even the stupidest watcher. Extended masking is limited and even then... his living aura is still clearly visibile... he just hides spells/active foci's aura inside his own.

Similarly he's still visible to to sensors like radar, ultra-wideband radar, sonar, and ultrasound.


Then of course there's always the hand of god... have him make random perception tests... the one he fails is the 18 wheeler which creams him on the windwhield he didn't see... and which the driver clearly didn't see him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Similarly he's still visible to to sensors like radar, ultra-wideband radar, sonar, and ultrasound.

Technically, no, as he still applies his modifier to the perception test, even with such sensors active. It is a straight reduction in pool size.

[Falconer]

Correct to the perception test.

There is not necessarily any perception test to notice something obvious to the sensor unless the target is attempting to hide.

And you're not attempting to hide if you're in plain sight only relying on concealment to 'hide' you. It's not as if the pixie is in a cloud of chaff to confuse the radar!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Correct to the perception test.

There is not necessarily any perception test to notice something obvious to the sensor unless the target is attempting to hide.

And you're not attempting to hide if you're in plain sight only relying on concealment to 'hide' you. It's not as if the pixie is in a cloud of chaff to confuse the radar!

True, but unfortunately, there is no clarification on the "Hide only" action of Concealment. I agree it should be that way, but you know how the Lawyers get... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Umidori]

So wait a minute Umidori, there is an issue with your example here... Why would the Emotitoy see it and not the guy? Concealment works against Sensors just as well as it does against people.

My bad, I was under the impression that it was a Mana based power rather than a Physical one. Correct you are! It's never really come up in my games, so I guess that explains my mix-up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My bad, I was under the impression that it was a Mana based power rather than a Physical one. Correct you are! It's never really come up in my games, so I guess that explains my mix-up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

No worries... It is a screwy power anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

Well that is what happens when you design one set of powers for players and another set for NPC/Critters then decide to bring one over from the other side....

The original Windling from ED never had this sort of ability, if anything their garish outfits pretty much ruled out concealing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well that is what happens when you design one set of powers for players and another set for NPC/Critters then decide to bring one over from the other side....

The original Windling from ED never had this sort of ability, if anything their garish outfits pretty much ruled out concealing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Windlings did have a substantial Physical Defense bonus from being so darn small, though.

~Umi

[KarmaInferno]

I would also point out that Concealment normally only works on the Astral if the user is dual natured.

Some GMs might allow it when the pixie is astrally perceiving, but just as many might rule that the "dual natured" needs to be an inherent part of the creature, like ghouls have.





-k

[Ruby]

So does that mean that spirits or other astrally active things could see my players if they had their own spirit using concealment to avoid physical detection?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would also point out that Concealment normally only works on the Astral if the user is dual natured.
-k

EDIT: Never Mind... Reading Failure, with a Crit Glitch... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Falconer]

Ruby: This is covered in the astral section of the main book, and in a lot more detail in Street Magic.

Things on the astral can see & hear things on the physical. The astral is a mirror of the world... non-living items are dull grey colorless shadows with no substance on the astral. Life glows and lights the astral plane... the sentient beings being brighter than lower animals... and magical beings being the brightest of all.

Yes, even with concealment something on the astral can spy on the group of mundanes. Concealment provides no protection against astral observers for mundanes who are trying to hide.



The commentary above regards whether it is a critter with the 'dual-natured' power (which it can't turn off and is always viewing both the astral and the physical, which is a huge drawback)... or simply a mage who's switching his perception to the astral and becoming temporarily dual-natured while he blinds himself to the physical to view the astral. (the book has a very bad habit of reusing critical phrases like that... see mystic armor there's 3 distinct types depending on what you're talking about! each different from the other).

The power itself is physical.. it must be used on a physical form... if that form happens to be 'dual natured' that concealment also extends to the astral.

So for a normal mundane human... they're just as visible on the astral as always; they're merely harder to spot on the physical when they attempt to hide. If it's a dual-natured critter like a ghoul, it would gain the benefit of concealment on both the astral and the physical. If they're a mage and astrally perceive... depending on which definition of 'dual-natured' your GM uses the character may or may not get the concealment bonus on the astral as well. If the mage were to astrally project he would not get concealment... If a materialized spirit were to use concealment on itself then dematerialize to the astral.. it would gain no benefit either (purely astral form with no physical presence).


So the purely astral spirit in your example couldn't use concealment to help hide while observing the group.

[kzt]

The other minor detail that I don't think anyone mentioned is that if you have concealment 6 you also have the ability to conceal 5 other "things" at the the same time as you conceal yourself. So it isn't just the pixie that can't be seen.

[Falconer]

I'm away from that particular book at the moment... but the Pixie's power is self-only IIRC.

So no the Pixie isn't getting a bunch of extras.

[Neko Asakami]

Yup, Concealment is self only for Pixies.

[toturi]

The Concealment power is physical. For someone to benefit from Concealment, the power has to be used on it while it is on the physical plane. Someone observing anyone benefitting from Concealment will have a dice pool penalty as stated in the description of Concealment.

It would serve as a timely reminder that there are several categories of what you can perceive (Perception). I recall that Astral Perception and Assensing follow a similar set of guidelines as Perception.

No roll at all: Anything the GM deems "immediately obvious" (AFB so forgive me if my memory is a little unreliable EDIT: the correct term is "immediately noticeable") but with a caveat that what is immediately obvious may vary from situation to situation, what may be immediately obvious when you are at home and relaxed is different from a combat situation
1 Success: Large, obvious stuff
2 Successes: Smaller, less obvious stuff
And so on.

I believe that there are some examples in the rules that show what you can perceive with varying degrees of success. EDIT: Perception Test Tables - Page 136 SR4A.

[Thanee]

Just use the easiest solution: No Pixies!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Sendaz]

On a fun side note, Pixie wings are a valid reagent component. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

Nothing wrong with Pixies! The problem is the people who abuse them! You wouldn't ban children to stop pedophiles would ya? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

~Umi

[Ruby]

Ruby: This is covered in the astral section of the main book, and in a lot more detail in Street Magic.

Things on the astral can see & hear things on the physical. The astral is a mirror of the world... non-living items are dull grey colorless shadows with no substance on the astral. Life glows and lights the astral plane... the sentient beings being brighter than lower animals... and magical beings being the brightest of all.

Yes, even with concealment something on the astral can spy on the group of mundanes. Concealment provides no protection against astral observers for mundanes who are trying to hide.

*walks away from forums cackling and tenting her hands evilly ala Mr Burns.* Good to know. I had missed that part & the player has been misleading me every since. Revenge is mine.