Spoof Command Overpowered or Useless? Options

[Repulse]

With spoof Command (the way I read it) with one mark on the owning persona I can for the most part treat the device as my own... Allowing reboots with one mark instead of 3. If its a deck, I can shutdown programs, reallocate stats, and couldn't I invite marks or even transfer ownership of the device...

[Repulse]

Or... Will it end up being I will never actually see the owner of a device, as the owner will be a mega corp, etc...

[Jaid]

Or... Will it end up being I will never actually see the owner of a device, as the owner will be a mega corp, etc...

you probably only need to mark the host, in much the same way that you do not have to mark an actual human being. 9 times out of 10, the corporation's matrix presence will be their host. heck, probably more than 9 times out of 10.

[Repulse]

So, then with one mark on the host, I could reboot, format, transfer ownership, invite marks, untold other commands on all of the devices it "owns"? No matter how many marks the actually command would normally require, because its the "owner" sending the command?

[BlackJaw]

With spoof Command (the way I read it) with one mark on the owning persona I can for the most part treat the device as my own... Allowing reboots with one mark instead of 3. If its a deck, I can shutdown programs, reallocate stats, and couldn't I invite marks or even transfer ownership of the device...

It's probably a fairly uncommon tactic because of the Persona requirement. A person only has a persona if they are actively on the matrix. Of course on corporate runs, the owner may be listed as a corporate host system, as Jaid points out, so that makes finding the owner easier. You can mark host without entering it, and IC stays inside the host, so that might help too.

I don't think you will be able to mess with Cyberdecks too often, however. A Decker on the matrix has a Persona that replaces his Deck's device Icon. That means you aren't going to be able to spoof commands from his persona to his deck as they are the same icon. Similarly a rigger jumped into a drone or vehicle merges their icon with the device icon of the drone/vehicle, so you can't spoof commands from the rigger to his drone while he is jumped into it.

[BlackJaw]

So, then with one mark on the host, I could reboot, format, transfer ownership, invite marks, untold other commands on all of the devices it "owns"? No matter how many marks the actually command would normally require, because its the "owner" sending the command?

Well keep in mind that Spoofing still requires skill roll vs firewall + Logic, and that a host system typically has all the device icons for all it's slaved parts inside the host where you also have to deal with IC and Spiders.

Now, the book does specifically note that devices that can not be easily protected physically are often not slaved to a host because of the vulnerability of a direct connection attack. That means the security doors and cameras in a facility maybe be slaved to the host system (and thus inside the host) but the guns and commlinks the guards are carrying probably aren't, even if they are owned by the host instead of the guards.

Also, a Host system has an Attack ratting, so the spider protecting it can use the Erase Mark action to remove your one mark, and suddenly you can't spoof any more.

Edit:
Oh, and transfer ownership of devices isn't a "command" that you can Spoof. It's a one minute process that requires physical interaction with the device to do legally. See page 237. Ownership counts like having 4 marks, but it isn't actual marks, so you can't spoof invite 4 marks to transfer ownership.

[Repulse]

The main reason that I am asking is because we plan on starting up a 5e run, and previously I didnt really like decking (havent played since 2nd edition), but I plan on playing either a Mystical Adept/Decker (staying in AR). There is another guy that will be player decker for the first time as well. The plan was "specifically vs counterhackers" I would hack on the fly their persona, then spoof command their deck to invite marks / transfer ownership to my co-decking buddy, once he acquired marks / ownership, i would reboot my deck, and do a bit of spellcasting. This would allow him to do anything he needed without even acquiring an OWS while I was coming back up, etc. I planned on specializing in spoof, and boosting Int up to 8, and possibly getting codeslinger (spoof command), and setting my deck for max sleaze, running the exploit program, and probably capping out at 7 or 8.

Again its currently all theorycraft behind deciding what I want to do with my next character.

[Repulse]

Oh, I didnt see the physical requirement for changing ownership, I just saw that it took 1 minute to do that.

P.237

"The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership
to another persona in a process that takes about
a minute."

[Skynet]

Still, inviting 3 marks through a single action seems a bit much.
As mentioned before though, you can't spoof a command to a cyberdeck or commlink in use (as it is replaced by the persona of the user and only devices can be spoofed).

[BlackJaw]

Oh, I didnt see the physical requirement for changing ownership, I just saw that it took 1 minute to do that.

P.237

"The owner of an icon can intentionally transfer ownership
to another persona in a process that takes about
a minute."

Oh, looks like you're right it doesn't require physical access to the device, but if you read farther up: "Ownership, at least in the Matrix, is something that is registered with both the device (or other icons) and the grids, so it’s a bit more involved than just putting a “Property of [blank]” sticker on it."" Which implies it's not just something you can spoof a command to a device to do. The owner has to also register the change of ownership in various other places besides the device, which is why it takes about a minute instead of being a single command.

It looks like forcing an illegal changing ownership of something was intentionally designed to be harder to do than just a simple hack or spoof command. The intended way to get ownership is actually a hardware check taking hours and requiring the physical object. It sort of implies you're going in and changing the serial numbers in the firm ware instead of the registration elsewhere.

Mind you, your setup will work fine for inviting marks, which will be legitimate marks as far as GOD is concerned, but it will only work when you can get a mark on the owner of the targeted device, and while that might be hosts for corps, for gangers and mercenaries, that will be the guy holding the device, and if that device is a gun, he probably isn't currently surfing the matrix (has a persona) while hes shooting at your team.

[Repulse]

So, when a decker is "decking" his cyberdeck doesnt even register as a device anymore?

[X-Kalibur]

So, when a decker is "decking" his cyberdeck doesnt even register as a device anymore?

Pretty much. No going around the decker persona, which could be very dangerous, and just bricking and crashing his deck.

[Skynet]

At least that's what the rules say.

When a person uses a device
to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed
by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the
Matrix until the persona jacks out.

[Nath]

Or... Will it end up being I will never actually see the owner of a device, as the owner will be a mega corp, etc...

A corporation physical existence is, in the best case, a sheet of paper in the chamber of commerce's archives. The president can legally take all actions on the behalf of a corporation, but I somehow doubt Lofwyr or Damien Knight do personally perform Invite Mark whenever a technician somewhere needs a Mark to use the Device.

As far as the rule go, ownership would be transferred to a local employee when it is installed (but not necessarily on-site ; possibly all Knight Errant gear in Seattle could be owned by a single sysadmin). Of course, because ownership rules makes it a somewhat metaphysical property (resulting in Mental attributes used even if you're a hundred miles away and so on...), it has yet to say how the initial Ownership is granted or what happen when the Owner dies (especially since Ownership cannot be shared).

[Repulse]

I could still tag the persona with 3 marks, and throw out a reboot command, which would do the same thing, but just take me a round or two longer, correct?

[Skynet]

I could still tag the persona with 3 marks, and throw out a reboot command, which would do the same thing, but just take me a round or two longer, correct?

This action only works on devices. It doesn’t work on
hosts, living beings (like technomancers, although they
can “reboot” themselves, p. 251), or Resonance constructs (like sprites), and the only persona it works on is
your own.

I think the intended goal there is: No shenanigans whatsoever with the portal a person uses to go online. You have to beat them in a (more or less) fair cybercombat. (Or use a really strong jammer to disconnect them.)

[Voran]

Yeah, I've interpreted as sorta 'attended things can't be spoofed'. If they aren't being monitored/attended then just having 1 mark would be enough to let you fart around with it, with its own risks unless you can manage to take full ownership.

[Flaser]

Oh, looks like you're right it doesn't require physical access to the device, but if you read farther up: "Ownership, at least in the Matrix, is something that is registered with both the device (or other icons) and the grids, so it’s a bit more involved than just putting a “Property of [blank]” sticker on it."" Which implies it's not just something you can spoof a command to a device to do. The owner has to also register the change of ownership in various other places besides the device, which is why it takes about a minute instead of being a single command.

It looks like forcing an illegal changing ownership of something was intentionally designed to be harder to do than just a simple hack or spoof command. The intended way to get ownership is actually a hardware check taking hours and requiring the physical object. It sort of implies you're going in and changing the serial numbers in the firm ware instead of the registration elsewhere.

Mind you, your setup will work fine for inviting marks, which will be legitimate marks as far as GOD is concerned, but it will only work when you can get a mark on the owner of the targeted device, and while that might be hosts for corps, for gangers and mercenaries, that will be the guy holding the device, and if that device is a gun, he probably isn't currently surfing the matrix (has a persona) while hes shooting at your team.

Unless the ganger is using AR! Don't forget, AR also counts as Matrix use! Your persona is gonna be low-res and flickery, but it will be a persona instead a device icon.

[Repulse]

So, if a decker is decking via AR, do they have a deck device icon, or a comlink device icon, or neither?

[Flaser]

So, if a decker is decking via AR, do they have a deck device icon, or a comlink device icon, or neither?

Neither... they have a persona. The moment you start using a device to interact with the matrix - whether in AR or VR - the device icon is replaced by your persona.

[Repulse]

So his persona would absorb both items? Also, would bricking a master device in a master/slave relationship also brick all of the slaves?

[Flaser]

So his persona would absorb both items? Also, would bricking a master device in a master/slave relationship also brick all of the slaves?

No, the persona only absorbs the device you're using to get online. When a rigger jumps into a device the same happens to that device's icon. What else has persona? Agents, technomancers and IC. Agents running on a device on their own simply absorb the device icon. If the agent shares a device with you (i.e. your deck) it gets its own persona even though it's on the same device as you. Technomancers don't need a device to be online, yet they still get a persona. Finally IC runs on the host and therefore there is no device icon to absorb.

As for bricking, I don't see why bricking the master would damage the others. The master/slave setup only affects defense rolls but doesn't lead to shared matrix damage. The moment the master is bricked, all slaves would loose the protection it offered and probably default the stand-alone operation.

[BlackJaw]

Unless the ganger is using AR! Don't forget, AR also counts as Matrix use! Your persona is gonna be low-res and flickery, but it will be a persona instead a device icon.

Just because he has AR doesn't mean he's on the matrix. Augmented Reality isn't automatically the matrix of grid, host, and device icons. In AR you see Augmented Reality Objects (AROs) which can be as big as billboards, but they aren't the same as the device icons in the Matrix, which are described as small and simple based on the location of the device they are attached to. Also, check out the example on page 224: BK can see the waitress's commlink, not her Persona, because she's not on the matrix. Page 235: "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out. " A person with a commlink isn't automatically a persona.

Now you can get onto the Matrix via AR, but you have to open an optional matrix window or overlay in your AR field of view to do it. Page 229: "As we’ve described, AR is normal living in physical space with an AR heads-up display. You can see the Matrix if you like, either by creating a virtual window or display screen and viewing it like a camera, or by overlaying device and host information on your normal vision. " As near as I can tell, the AR window for Matrix access is needed for most hacking and even "standard" matrix actions, like running a data search, but not for basic viewing AR. All you need to see AR is an image link in your glasses/etc, page 444 "Image link: A standard upgrade, this lets you display visual information (text, pictures, movies, the current time, etc.) in your field of vision. This is usually AROs, but you can display pretty much whatever you want on it. You and your team can use it to share tactical and situational info in real time. An image link is what you need to truly “see” AR and participate in the modern world."

So that Ganger probably has a PAN icon for his gun, commlink, and other gear, but unless he was in the middle of a matrix search when he decided to jump you, he's probably not a persona on the matrix. If he is a persona on the matrix, then his field of view in AR is cluttered with extra data and the GM may impose a -2 distraction penalty on him. Page 229: "If your attention is really focused on your AR display and not your surroundings, your gamemaster may impose a –2 dice pool penalty on any Perception tests you make to notice things going on around you in physical space."

[BlackJaw]

So his persona would absorb both items?

No. You can only use one device to get onto the matrix with at any given time. That means if you want to be decking, you're online through your cyberdeck. Your commlink, assuming you have one in addition to your deck, remains a device icon, along with every other bit of wireless enabled device you have on you.

[Flaser]

Just because he has AR doesn't mean he's on the matrix. Augmented Reality isn't automatically the matrix of grid, host, and device icons. In AR you see Augmented Reality Objects (AROs) which can be as big as billboards, but they aren't the same as the device icons in the Matrix, which are described as small and simple based on the location of the device they are attached to. Also, check out the example on page 224: BK can see the waitress's commlink, not her Persona, because she's not on the matrix. Page 235: "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out. " A person with a commlink isn't automatically a persona.

Now you can get onto the Matrix via AR, but you have to open an optional matrix window or overlay in your AR field of view to do it. Page 229: "As we’ve described, AR is normal living in physical space with an AR heads-up display. You can see the Matrix if you like, either by creating a virtual window or display screen and viewing it like a camera, or by overlaying device and host information on your normal vision. " As near as I can tell, the AR window for Matrix access is needed for most hacking and even "standard" matrix actions, like running a data search, but not for basic viewing AR. All you need to see AR is an image link in your glasses/etc, page 444 "Image link: A standard upgrade, this lets you display visual information (text, pictures, movies, the current time, etc.) in your field of vision. This is usually AROs, but you can display pretty much whatever you want on it. You and your team can use it to share tactical and situational info in real time. An image link is what you need to truly “see” AR and participate in the modern world."

So that Ganger probably has a PAN icon for his gun, commlink, and other gear, but unless he was in the middle of a matrix search when he decided to jump you, he's probably not a persona on the matrix. If he is a persona on the matrix, then his field of view in AR is cluttered with extra data and the GM may impose a -2 distraction penalty on him. Page 229: "If your attention is really focused on your AR display and not your surroundings, your gamemaster may impose a –2 dice pool penalty on any Perception tests you make to notice things going on around you in physical space."

Then question is more complex: He's definitely *using* the matrix, after all RFIDs and all AROs work, because they pull their data off the Matrix. (OK, you can embed some data in an RFID, but for anything interactive you need something that can do actual transactions... hence my claim). The question then is whether it's only their commlink that does all of this, or whether the commlink's icon gets turned into a persona by the virtue of the user accessign the Matrix through it... if you catch the distinction I'm implying.

AFAIK, either interpretation could be right, and I wouldn't ascribe too much meaning to a single verb. Whether it's your or mine interpretation that's correct is something the devs will have to clear up... unless I missed some critical information in the book, which is a possibility.