Summoner terrorism, the "single spirit theory": oswald summoned alone! Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Some rumors even say TJ is Damien Knight when he wants to do some runs to keep his hand in the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Shhhhh.....
Note to Security Coordinator: Check our Files on the Shadworunner known as Sendaz, evaluate whether he has become a security risk. If so, remove him.

[shinryu]

i assume in the example that the summoners have enough of an idea of where damon knight is to get the spirit there. body doubles and such are all a great solution to that issue, but it just exacerbates the idea that if you're not so stupidly rich as to have absolutely top-end security mages and body doubles and warded and armored cars, then you are pretty much a pissed mage away from being scraped off the sidewalk.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

i assume in the example that the summoners have enough of an idea of where damon knight is to get the spirit there. body doubles and such are all a great solution to that issue, but it just exacerbates the idea that if you're not so stupidly rich as to have absolutely top-end security mages and body doubles and warded and armored cars, then you are pretty much a pissed mage away from being scraped off the sidewalk.

Most people ARE just a pissed mage away from being scraped off the sidewalk. That is one of the reasons, if not the biggest reason, why Mages are feared.

[wepv]

First off, Hi! I'm new to the boards. Would have posted two pages ago but sign up process slowed me down.

I think spirits are too strong in sr5. That said, I don't see spirit terrorism to be much of an issue. Spirits only become too strong past force 6, with the truly unanswerable levels in the 10+ force range.

Assuming Shinryu's number is a good guess of the number of magic 6 population, what percentage of them are adepts? And what percentage are aspects mages that can't summon? Lets say that it is an even chance that you are an adept, an aspected Mage( 3 different types), or a Mage of mystic adept. All mages and mystic adepts and 1/3 of aspected mages could possibly summon. What percentage of them will actually have summoning 6 with a specialization? What percentage of these have min-maxed drain stats and high enough damage boxes to stay awake/alive to finish the summon? What percentage of these have summoning foci? And then what percentage of these have edge? Then what percentage of these have the mindset and world view to push them to commit terrorism?

So 6000 people have magic 6. Maybe 50% of them can summon. So 3000. 1/6 of these might have summoning 6(ignoring specs right now). So now we have 500 people on earth that could do this. I have no idea how to figure out how many of these will have the needed drain stats but even if half of them have the drain stats that still leaves us with only 250 possible spirit bombers. How many of these 250 people would have edge? Not many. How many of them would be willing to commit terrorism?

I think this is why it's not an issue. It is just too rare. Is it possible? Yes, but it is more likely that one of his body guards is actually a dragon decker possessed by a toxic spirit.

[shinryu]

we are having an exciting discussion in the military magic thread along these lines. according to a couple of freelancers, the number of mages in the world in no way supports the complete ease of generating death-machines at chargen. i had made my assumptions based on a world where 1% awakened meant 1% of the population were adepts and mages, but even that number is too high. shadowrun: where internal system and setting consistency just doesn't matter.

tymeaus:
related to the discussion of too few mages and everyone being afraid of them is that an awakened pogrom really does start to be a plausible idea. if only 10 out of 1000 awakened are actually as dangerous as this, then the idea of a population killing all the awakened is actually possible, especially if the government helps take out the really dangerous ones (and keeps its loyal awakened alive as valuable collaborators). this sort of nightmare scenario only makes it more likely that the political elite would want to push for such a thing. for every damon knight, there are two dozen junior VPs with not nearly enough mojo between them and a force 12 elemental. so i think that this could happen at all is a big problem for the setting.

[wepv]

How many mages able to summon such a spirit are not working for a megacorp?

[shinryu]

How many mages able to summon such a spirit are not working for a megacorp?

exactly! if you go by the canon numbers of awakened, not only are there no mages to pull this trick, there are basically no mages that would be working as shadowrunners at all, period. it's a bit of a problem for the game as it is.

[wepv]

I would agree if the majority of shadowrunners were not deranged adrenaline junkies, incapable of holding a real job.
So any awakened who is mentally stable, yeah they most likely work for a corp or a government. But all of the others are likely gangers or shadowrunners.

[RHat]

tymeaus:
related to the discussion of too few mages and everyone being afraid of them is that an awakened pogrom really does start to be a plausible idea. if only 10 out of 1000 awakened are actually as dangerous as this, then the idea of a population killing all the awakened is actually possible, especially if the government helps take out the really dangerous ones (and keeps its loyal awakened alive as valuable collaborators). this sort of nightmare scenario only makes it more likely that the political elite would want to push for such a thing. for every damon knight, there are two dozen junior VPs with not nearly enough mojo between them and a force 12 elemental. so i think that this could happen at all is a big problem for the setting.

There was a jihad started with that exact goal. Aden responded by razing Tehran.

In other words, if anyone did decide to attempt it, the dragons would intervene. We know this, because someone decided to attempt it and a dragon intervened.

[RHat]

I would agree if the majority of shadowrunners were not deranged adrenaline junkies, incapable of holding a real job.
So any awakened who is mentally stable, yeah they most likely work for a corp or a government. But all of the others are likely gangers or shadowrunners.

There are plenty of mentally stable runners - they just have their own reasons for not going corporate.

[shinryu]

There was a jihad started with that exact goal. Aden responded by razing Tehran.

In other words, if anyone did decide to attempt it, the dragons would intervene. We know this, because someone decided to attempt it and a dragon intervened.

point taken, though i would suspect that it largely depends on what subset of awakened are targeted. if the ayatollah had said "god is great, he gave us mages to fight for allah! smite the infidel demon worshippers" and started smiting the (admittedly small) population of christian and sunnni awakened, i don't know as it would have prompted the same response. as another example, i'm not sure lofwyr would give a second thought to ordering the cleansing of the non sader-krupp awakened in a small african country that displeased him. if they don't have a dragon on their side, that could go poorly for the native magicians. this is especially a scenario if one ethnic group allies itself with sader-krupp and the other resists, in which case we have something like a hutu-tutsi war with a little awakened genocide on top.

[RHat]

point taken, though i would suspect that it largely depends on what subset of awakened are targeted. if the ayatollah had said "god is great, he gave us mages to fight for allah! smite the infidel demon worshippers" and started smiting the (admittedly small) population of christian and sunnni awakened, i don't know as it would have prompted the same response. as another example, i'm not sure lofwyr would give a second thought to ordering the cleansing of the non sader-krupp awakened in a small african country that displeased him. if they don't have a dragon on their side, that could go poorly for the native magicians. this is especially a scenario if one ethnic group allies itself with sader-krupp and the other resists, in which case we have something like a hutu-tutsi war with a little awakened genocide on top.

If he'd done that, the Church would have gone after him - you don't want groups like the Knights of St. Sylvester (think that's the one) on you. The Sunni Awakened might hav e a similar group.

There were probably a LOT of small conflicts shortly following the Awakening, which would have contributed to the balkanization that occurred.

[shinryu]

If he'd done that, the Church would have gone after him - you don't want groups like the Knights of St. Sylvester (think that's the one) on you. The Sunni Awakened might hav e a similar group.

There were probably a LOT of small conflicts shortly following the Awakening, which would have contributed to the balkanization that occurred.

well, that's why you have to kill them all, isn't it? i'm not saying this is a good idea, as i think history has generally demonstrated these things only result in simmering century-long feuds with intermittent huge bloody incidents. i'm just saying i think people are stupid enough to try it. then again, perhaps they have learned from the balkanization period that this doesn't go well.

[RHat]

well, that's why you have to kill them all, isn't it? i'm not saying this is a good idea, as i think history has generally demonstrated these things only result in simmering century-long feuds with intermittent huge bloody incidents. i'm just saying i think people are stupid enough to try it. then again, perhaps they have learned from the balkanization period that this doesn't go well.

And I'm suggesting that people may have tried it, and failed.

[shinryu]

And I'm suggesting that people may have tried it, and failed.

plus ca change. it didn't work for germany very well, but that didn't stop the serbs from trying 60 years later.

[RHat]

plus ca change. it didn't work for germany very well, but that didn't stop the serbs from trying 60 years later.

Maybe, but at this point the people who might do it REALLY aren't in a position to do so.