Military magic, My tattoo says born to kill because it's a qi focus. Sir. Options

[shinryu]

so for many societies there's an overarching magical paradigm or religion that you can see many mages slotting right into. sioux wildcats have shamans, japanacorps and the imperial marines have shinto casters, etc. but the good old UCAS, melting pot that it is, doesn't seem to have a dominant religion of any real kind. this seems like a problem for magicians in the military in particular, as i can't imagine this bullshit with hermetic circles goes over very well. better than waving around a stick like some fucking keebler in the forest, but not by much. i sort of don't see many academic or corporate magicians going for that whole hermetic thing, but that's a different thread.

so what does UCAS military magic look like then? i'm thinking it's something like the fairbain and skyes knife fighting manuals from back in the combatives era. lots of precise formula diagrams titled "MAG-100012-A SUMMONING OF ELEMENTAL, FIRE" and like that. standardized foci color-coded to force and function. lots of chanting about how this is your rifle instead of invoking ancient gods. hermeticism with a government-issue stick up its ass. with the occasional adept going out and getting a BORN TO KILL qi focus of a big dagger in a bleeding heart tattooed on his arm that is not at all regulation.

does this sound rightish? thoughts? i'm thinking about making an adept sniper with a sweet cyberarm, and i want him to have flava. tastes like kubrick, shoots like zaitsev kinda thing.

[Makki]

at least CAS military has Christian Theurgy

[RHat]

so for many societies there's an overarching magical paradigm or religion that you can see many mages slotting right into. sioux wildcats have shamans, japanacorps and the imperial marines have shinto casters, etc. but the good old UCAS, melting pot that it is, doesn't seem to have a dominant religion of any real kind. this seems like a problem for magicians in the military in particular, as i can't imagine this bullshit with hermetic circles goes over very well. better than waving around a stick like some fucking keebler in the forest, but not by much. i sort of don't see many academic or corporate magicians going for that whole hermetic thing, but that's a different thread.

so what does UCAS military magic look like then? i'm thinking it's something like the fairbain and skyes knife fighting manuals from back in the combatives era. lots of precise formula diagrams titled "MAG-100012-A SUMMONING OF ELEMENTAL, FIRE" and like that. standardized foci color-coded to force and function. lots of chanting about how this is your rifle instead of invoking ancient gods. hermeticism with a government-issue stick up its ass. with the occasional adept going out and getting a BORN TO KILL qi focus of a big dagger in a bleeding heart tattooed on his arm that is not at all regulation.

does this sound rightish? thoughts? i'm thinking about making an adept sniper with a sweet cyberarm, and i want him to have flava. tastes like kubrick, shoots like zaitsev kinda thing.

You can't really foist a tradition on someone. If you could indoctrinate them properly from birth, maybe, but for the military? The mages they get are already have their tradition, and there's not changing that, so the military just gets to deal with it.

[Slide]

I see ucas being non-denominational like you said. You would probably be able to find pocket manuals in very fine print detailing the standard uses and counter actions for magical threats. Out side of that it seems hard to pin a tradition on it since having a totem isn't a choice. Any training basic soldiers had would be very cut and dry. Hmmm.... As a sniper there are tons of military traditions with them. Only one I can think of now is the boars tooth. That's when u kill a man and take the round he had chambered for you as your boars toothnecklace. Proof that u are a hunter. Or something like that.

[RHat]

I see ucas being non-denominational like you said. You would probably be able to find pocket manuals in very fine print detailing the standard uses and counter actions for magical threats. Out side of that it seems hard to pin a tradition on it since having a totem isn't a choice. Any training basic soldiers had would be very cut and dry. Hmmm.... As a sniper there are tons of military traditions with them. Only one I can think of now is the boars tooth. That's when u kill a man and take the round he had chambered for you as your boars toothnecklace. Proof that u are a hunter. Or something like that.

I am SO using that for a character's foci now...

[shinryu]

despite the disturbing implications of the symbology, the nordic runes are used by modern day scout snipers... don't google that picture.

the necklace thing is awesome. i like it.

this does bring up the interesting question: when exactly do you get your tradition? again, in other cultures it's already part of, well, your culture. but in the UCAS and some of europe, it's not like there's a dominant tradition to latch on to, exactly. so do you turn out to be talented and pick up your tradition in your teenage years (in which case enlisting and learning a "milspec magic" would be plausible and also awesome) or is it burned in even earlier than that? same with corporate mages; i imagine if you're recruited in your teens you probably learn the tradition that the corporation likes. i wonder what ares magic is like? everybody else it's almost too obvious though. except evo.

oh, oh, goddamn great idea. CAS throwback war between the states shamans! i want my totem spirit to be robert e lee! i know, stop with the confederacy jokes, but that would be epically awesome.

[RHat]

despite the disturbing implications of the symbology, the nordic runes are used by modern day scout snipers... don't google that picture.

the necklace thing is awesome. i like it.

this does bring up the interesting question: when exactly do you get your tradition? again, in other cultures it's already part of, well, your culture. but in the UCAS and some of europe, it's not like there's a dominant tradition to latch on to, exactly. so do you turn out to be talented and pick up your tradition in your teenage years (in which case enlisting and learning a "milspec magic" would be plausible and also awesome) or is it burned in even earlier than that? same with corporate mages; i imagine if you're recruited in your teens you probably learn the tradition that the corporation likes. i wonder what ares magic is like? everybody else it's almost too obvious though. except evo.

oh, oh, goddamn great idea. CAS throwback war between the states shamans! i want my totem spirit to be robert e lee! i know, stop with the confederacy jokes, but that would be epically awesome.

It's not about the culture that's around you - it's about your own beliefs. Those may be shaped and influenced by the culture around you, but they may also turn out to be contrary to it. And given that wild technomancers are a thing and wild mages aren't (or at least weren't in SR4), it seems its already there when you Awaken.

[Slide]

Jrotc for all your milspecmag needs. The might have something for various traditions like the chaplains for religion. They can help ubfindyour tradition.

Robert E Lee was an intresting guy. Was asked to head the union army, abhored slavery but refused to take arms against Virginia. Resigned and well we know the rest. II'd take him as a mentor spirit.

[shinryu]

that's the thing; as soon as you want to totally hate the other side, they always have that one cool guy. lee, richtofen, rommel, yamamoto. i notice the one cool guy often tells his government that they are being dumbasses shortly before being ordered to be a dumbass on their behalf. sigh.

in all seriousness, i could see there being something of a movement on both sides of the mason dixon as far as founding father figures and totem spirits; they're as close to genuine ancestor spirits as america or the confederacy get, and i just sort of dig this idea both for the hilarious "tea party shaman" idea it gives me and also as a serious sort of invented cult of personality-cum-magical movement. to top things off, at least for the yankees it's not like there's not the masonic imagery already baked in with the founders. columbia would be a sort of appropriate totem for military/nationalist magicians in the ucas too. don't know who the canadians would worship, though. probably tim horton, them's some damn good donuts.

[Sendaz]

don't know who the canadians would worship, though. probably tim horton, them's some damn good donuts.

Where do you think that Spell Shaping Metamagic came from originally? Sure it's described as having an unaffected bubble in the middle, but then you realize its a doughnut shaped aoe spell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Critias]

You could certainly make arguments for George Washington or, yes, even Robert E. Lee being the "voice in the head" of someone who followed Wise Warrior, for instance. If that's how the mentor spirit manifests to them, if that's the form it takes...well...that's the form it takes. It's a personal belief thing, though, not a "the military TELLS you to imagine a Founding Father helping you cast Manabolt" thing.

[forgarn]

As a sniper there are tons of military traditions with them. Only one I can think of now is the boars tooth. That's when u kill a man and take the round he had chambered for you as your boars toothnecklace. Proof that u are a hunter. Or something like that.

It's a HOG's tooth. Stands for Hunter Of Gunmen and they get it out of sniper school. While in school they are called PIG's or Professionally Instructed Gunmen.

[Sengir]

as i can't imagine this bullshit with hermetic circles goes over very well

Well, the official story is that it does, because hermeticism offered a home to all those who abhorred "keebler in the forest" magic (and because one of the original authors practiced it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). Since the only way to change one's tradition is by becoming a bug shaman, the consequence for corps and governments is "suck it up or leave it" -- magic users are rare and coveted, accordingly they get a lot of leeway.

[Wakshaani]

In the UCAS, you find more followers of the Hermetic way, including the military.

In the CAS, you find more followers of the Shamantic way, inlcuding the military.

At two-thirds the size, the CAS military has a magical arm that's about on par with the UCAS (Possibly a tad higher, possibly a tad lower), which is generally chalked up to the simple fact that UCAS mages get snatched up by the corps more often than CAS ones do. Totems, of course, pick the mage, not the other way around, so by the time the military gets them, the mage already has his tradition down; learning more spell formulae is where the training comes in. You can bet your sweet dippie that the Army has some interesting combat spells, and the CAS military's well known for ritual manipulation spells.

[shinryu]

so i always kind of thought that was the difference between logical and charisma traditions, i guess; if you manifested earlier and more intuitively or in a culture that had charismatic traditions, then perhaps that's more of a shamanic "beloved by the spirits thing", whereas if you manifested later or more systematically you erred toward a logical tradition (hermeticism, chaos, whatever), but i also figured that you had a bit more choice in that tradition. so are you more "born" a hermetic then? or could you "adapt" to a different logical tradition and its trappings? it's harder to see a shaman jumping ship from speaking with the spirits of the desert to talking to kami, those are whole other gods*. it seems like a hermetic could adapt their formulae to incorporate another culture more easily; chinese geomancy is just ley lines in a different language, arguably. (probably glossing over important difference, but in principle...)

one interesting split i could see as a result in the UCAS military or even a corporate force would be between the logical mages and the shamans; if the logical mages sort of "converge" on a standard military tradition they get to be promoted and assigned regular support duties, while your shamans tend to end up being assigned to less desirable tasks. also, i just like the image of someone spraying down magical symbols with that classic military stencil style, i guess.

*i'm sort of hoping official rules for this sort of thing come up eventually; while i think spirit domains were a little restrictive in e.g. 3rd ed, i do think that water spirits probably don't like the desert and walks-the-river might have a bit of trouble talking to aoikawa-no-kami if he heads to japan.

[Jaid]

in the novels at least, you seem to awaken with a tradition, and that tradition will not necessarily be what you grew up surrounded by.

twist, for example, is christian, grew up in japan, is specifically noted as having a very logical mind suited for decking, and when he awakened... became a dog shaman.

his sister who presumably was also christian, and who also grew up in japan, eventually becomes a wolf shaman, as i recall (although there are some pretty screwy circumstances surrounding that, it certainly was not a standard awakening).

[Sendaz]

twist, for example, is christian, grew up in japan, is specifically noted as having a very logical mind suited for decking, and when he awakened... became a dog shaman.

I always put that down to Twist being dyslexic and thought the spirit contract said God Shaman. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Also rumors had it his parents never let him sit up on the furniture.....

[Tanegar]

this seems like a problem for magicians in the military in particular, as i can't imagine this bullshit with hermetic circles goes over very well... i sort of don't see many academic or corporate magicians going for that whole hermetic thing, but that's a different thread.

Except that Hermeticism is, canonically, the tradition of choice among wagemages and academics. It's logical (and Logical), based on clearly defined laws and principles, as close as magic can get to being a science.

[Sendaz]

Except that Hermeticism is, canonically, the tradition of choice among wagemages and academics. It's logical (and Logical), based on clearly defined laws and principles, as close as magic can get to being a science.

Indeed, I belive the classic quote of why so few shamans join the corp grind was 'YOU tell Coyote he only gets a 15 minute coffee break.' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tzeentch]

Awakened, especially those useful in the military, are a fraction of 1% of the total population. The fraction of THAT who would be interested in the military versus opening their own business, joining the corps, turning to the shadows, or just exploring the astral is even smaller (I would suspect physical adepts would be over-represented as a share of the total adept population). You could probably put every single magician, shaman, and adept in the UCAS military in one large room. As they are a high-value asset the amount of money lavished on them is probably quite high measured in nuyen/spellcaster, but a pittance in the greater scheme of things.

Most mages and shamans are probably going to be used in an ISTAR (ISR) role, working at an upper echelon level unless specifically detached for a mission. There's no real controlling or standardization among the assets you will have available at any time so this is probably ad-hoc and determined on a case-by-case basis with the (probably mundane) commander consulting his Awakened staff. Most soldiers probably have limited exposure to magic, but it doesn't need to be pure book learning. You could have a few mages on training teams that show troops what to look out for with anchored spells (the post-Alamais material will be particularly fresh and relevant), what it feels like during a Mind Probe so you can sound an alert, the capabilities of elementals and countermeasures, binding and control of Awakened prisoners, etc.

(I wrote about this years ago, but the rules and the setting has changed quite a bit since then.)

[Sendaz]

In some areas of the globe where open magic is still frowned on, military forces still utilize such individuals under a 'Don't Ask, Don't Spell' Policy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[shinryu]

Except that Hermeticism is, canonically, the tradition of choice among wagemages and academics. It's logical (and Logical), based on clearly defined laws and principles, as close as magic can get to being a science.

i think i worded that poorly; i meant more that i don't see them going in for a bunch of monastic robes and arcane formulas written in ass-around crowley* ciphers. hermeticism as such, sure, but i imagine the trappings to be much more power suit and excel flowcharts, and each company having its specific flavor to the magic that you kind of had to adopt to be part of the team. sort of hermeticism if the apple design team got its hands on pentagrams, you know? just as arcane, except sleek management-speak and not succeed and suck eggs so much.

side note: mystic bureaucracy would be an awesome tradition. rituals consist primarily of consulting the org chart of hell and filling out forms to requisition spirits.




*probably not techically a hermetic, but i don't know enough john dee to make any jokes about him.

[shinryu]

Awakened, especially those useful in the military, are a fraction of 1% of the total population. The fraction of THAT who would be interested in the military versus opening their own business, joining the corps, turning to the shadows, or just exploring the astral is even smaller (I would suspect physical adepts would be over-represented as a share of the total adept population). You could probably put every single magician, shaman, and adept in the UCAS military in one large room.

cool, i'll check the link.

however, this seems to be one of the things where the background is at odds with its own numbers. UCAS is what, 180 million people still? so 1.8 million awakened, at least. even if 1% of those go military, you're still looking at 1800 military awakened. i guess it depends on your definition of large room, but that still seems like enough that the higher-ups would prefer to regiment and control their tradition rather than let do their own non-regulation magical thing. officially, anyway.

[Tzeentch]

cool, i'll check the link.

however, this seems to be one of the things where the background is at odds with its own numbers. UCAS is what, 180 million people still? so 1.8 million awakened, at least. even if 1% of those go military, you're still looking at 1800 military awakened. i guess it depends on your definition of large room, but that still seems like enough that the higher-ups would prefer to regiment and control their tradition rather than let do their own non-regulation magical thing. officially, anyway.

Awakened are WAY over-represented in the shadows for some reason, which distorts the perception of their ubiquity. It's actually 1% Awakened, and then a fraction of that even develop their talents. It's never been quite clear why an Awakened would bother with the national militaries much unless they were really patriotic or something, if you want combat experience you could probably get more as a Lone Star wagemage.

There's probably regulations and guidebooks about magic, but I can't imagine it being anything that a shadowrunner wouldn't already know or common-sense type of stuff. Most doctrinal publications would include section on magic, and there are certainly lessons-learned that would be applied to military mage (I like the term "warlock") training.

The guidelines for military Awakened are probably pretty loose. What would even be the point of trying to lock things down? One of the nice things about the way Shadowrun magic works is that you don't need to invent weird "military only" spells or restrictions (yes, I know there are some "military" spells in War!) so they would get trained much like everyone else. Depending on the nation they may be a separate branch of service (or de facto separate) and have their own recruiting and initial training courses, or they may try to integrate more - so Joe the Dog Shaman goes to UCAS Marine boot camp with everyone else, then gets sent to Applied Thaumatology for his A-school. Probably depends. We don't really know a lot about Shadowrun military stuff, much less military magic.

[Tanegar]

i think i worded that poorly; i meant more that i don't see them going in for a bunch of monastic robes and arcane formulas written in ass-around crowley* ciphers. hermeticism as such, sure, but i imagine the trappings to be much more power suit and excel flowcharts, and each company having its specific flavor to the magic that you kind of had to adopt to be part of the team. sort of hermeticism if the apple design team got its hands on pentagrams, you know? just as arcane, except sleek management-speak and not succeed and suck eggs so much.

side note: mystic bureaucracy would be an awesome tradition. rituals consist primarily of consulting the org chart of hell and filling out forms to requisition spirits.

*probably not techically a hermetic, but i don't know enough john dee to make any jokes about him.

YMMV, here. I can very easily see a guy in fatigues drawing a Hermetic circle on a battlefield, albeit some ways back from the front lines.