Spirit vs. tank, Did this ever get resolved? Options

[shinryu]

so i remember a debate was going on for quite some time about whether armored vehicles were basically useless in shadowrun due to spirits could just manifest inside them and murder the crew. i had always thought a combination of quickened spells and FAB II in the walls was used to defend against that, but i was never sure if this was something that ever really got a solution. partially just my own curiosity, partially since the new easy mode high-force spirits really kick standard magical protections in the dick and might make armored vehicles useless again. thoughts?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Neither fab or quickened spells are listed as standard anywhere that I know of. Maybe war did something with this, but with quickened spells costing karma I kind of doubt those are spread out on all armored vehicles.

[Tzeentch]

Nope. It's just one of those things that doesn't happen. One could draw an inference that heavily processed materials are difficult to astrally travel through, but AFAIK that's not supported by the game mechanics. They may also intentionally keep vehicle crew compartments cramped, so that there's no room to manifest.

[shinryu]

yeah, that makes sense for vehicles with rigger cocoons especially, but APCs and transport helicopters would be pretty screwed, it seems like. i like the astral travel difficulty solution, it's probably the cleanest option, but i'd really love to see official rules in that regard someday. maybe force vs. vehicle armor/barrier armor to push through might be a reasonable house rule.

i know FAB hasn't officially made the leap from 4th ed, but i'm not sure i see any technical reason why you couldn't put suspensions of the stuff in plates around the crew compartment of a vehicle to form a barrier. actually, depending on the critical mass required, i can't see why you couldn't put it in plates inside military armor, thought i suppose it might not form a complete enough barrier.

[Sendaz]

The armor/barrier vs force should not apply since a mage astrally projecting does not really face these issues so why would a spirit?

Unfortunately I doubt you will find an official reason for this as there are few good reasons that wouldn't require massively reconstructing the equipment in general.

Consider Mechs in Battletech. Fun game, run around shooting up stuff in really big machines. Nevermind the fact that a biped is tons more unstable than a quadruped design or other little niggling facts.

Why the hell would you ever engage Mech vs Mech when you could do the equivalent of Thor Shotting them from orbit. Not like most have any sort of decent dodge.

The most likely solution in case of spirit/mage attack is the military will then focus their own mage/spirit forces to counter these. It's reactive, but sadly the best you can do unless you have a lot more mages tucked away somehow to be able to supply adequate counterspelling or other magics to every unit.

[shinryu]

The armor/barrier vs force should not apply since a mage astrally projecting does not really face these issues so why would a spirit?

well, i'd assume that it would apply to a projecting mage as well. it would have the beneficial side effect of making "astrally projecting mage in a warded room with really thick walls" less of an incredibly viable defensive tactic if for no other reason than he would have to fight his own armored walls.

maybe militaries don't give a rat's ass at this point about troop survival, or maybe this is one of the reasons that warfare is so much about special ops units. but then again, we did just have a massive war in the amazon, and i can only imagine that amazonian summoners would have been amazing anti-armor and supply chain disruption units if azatlan didn't do something to counter it.

[Voran]

I do sorta wish Spirit Proofing things was as 'easy' as it was to Angel Proof/Demon Proof a location (fixed or not) ala Supernatural tv series. Draw some ward circles/sigils on the inside (low cost, don't even need to be mystically awakened) and voila.

[FuelDrop]

Consider Mechs in Battletech. Fun game, run around shooting up stuff in really big machines. Nevermind the fact that a biped is tons more unstable than a quadruped design or other little niggling facts.

Why the hell would you ever engage Mech vs Mech when you could do the equivalent of Thor Shotting them from orbit. Not like most have any sort of decent dodge.

With the Clans I believe it's a matter of honour. Inner sphere... honestly, I'd assume that your ships would be focused on A) destroying weapon sats that might target your ground troops and B) keeping enemy ships too busy to start an orbital bombardment of their own. Other than that, no suggestions.

[Slide]

I would imagine that battalions would have astral overwatch on standby for large operations. I mean honstly how big of an area can one mage on an open battlefield observe and cover?

[BlackJaw]

How common are battlefield spirits? If militaries have the resources to deploy mages/shamen to summon spirits to attack vehicles, then don't they also have the resources to set spirits to defend their vehicles? A group of tanks has a spirit or two tasked to protect them from enemy spirits, for example?

I know on one rather nasty run one of my characters was involved in, the pair of attack helicopters we ended up fleeing away from had a spirit protecting them from magical and spirit based attacks. It was very effective at stopping many magical attacks.

[shinryu]

i'd certainly assume there's astral overwatch for big troop movements, sure. but that doesn't do the troops a lot of good going house to house and then getting wasted by an unstoppable spiritual IED. at least in the case of RPGs and IEDs there are some things you can do about survivability. but i'd never want to leave base at that point. also, this is yet another area where i could see any half-competent military force either detaining or killing every awakened person they could find in the population as a matter of course.

i don't know, there's this huge disconnect between how easy it is to make a death-mage in character creation versus the setting's insistence that these people are as rare as almost 1 in 100,000 according to some of the freelancers, so the idea of spirits wasting convoys is maybe overblown. or maybe not. there's just so many holes and rule problems becoming apparent at this point i'm just sort of losing my interest in the whole setting.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

With the Clans I believe it's a matter of honour. Inner sphere... honestly, I'd assume that your ships would be focused on A) destroying weapon sats that might target your ground troops and B) keeping enemy ships too busy to start an orbital bombardment of their own. Other than that, no suggestions.

Well, The Inner Sphere really did not HAVE Military War Ships, they had Transports, and that was really it (They had lost the technology to build warships, and never really regained it). Until the clans came anyways.

[Smash]

Couldn't tanks just be created with a srayed on biological layer, like a specially created film with bacteria in it. It would require maintenance, but it would certainly stop spirits.

Easy alternative, houserule that spirits require a reasonable amount of room to manifest, say a 2x2x2m cube. You'd never get one of those inside most vehicles and it wouldn't stop most spirit use inside buildings, in alleys, etc.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Couldn't tanks just be created with a srayed on biological layer, like a specially created film with bacteria in it. It would require maintenance, but it would certainly stop spirits.

Easy alternative, houserule that spirits require a reasonable amount of room to manifest, say a 2x2x2m cube. You'd never get one of those inside most vehicles and it wouldn't stop most spirit use inside buildings, in alleys, etc.

In 1e and 2e sure, maybe 3e my memory is fuzzy. But somewhere along the line they decided you needed astrally active bacteria not just a thick enough coat of living matter. Earlier editions hand waved bacteria as something with insignificant astral mass so you could pass through most of it, but things like ivy would need you to actually push them aside. Later on they decided that did not make sense and required astral ivy etc. It does make more sense but I preferred earlier editions layman defense options.

[Jaid]

i think the space limitation works fine.

for transports, you could even have stuff that is simply designed to take up space as needed when there aren't troops filling that location. i mean, a fairly simple inflatable framework could make an area unsuitable to materialize in and take up next to no space when you need to put a soldier there (and might even be part of any safety harness the soldier is expected to wear, if any).

[pbangarth]

Just put a ward inside each vehicle. This takes hours, but it lasts weeks.... or until the spirit rams into it. It seems to me that in the long run, the ward makers outlast the spirit summoners.

[Irion]

It always burns down to the fact, that summoning spirits is fast.
Summoning a spirit is just to easy. No matter how you twist it, you can't really counter it unless you use the same trick (spirits).

[Elfenlied]

so i remember a debate was going on for quite some time about whether armored vehicles were basically useless in shadowrun due to spirits could just manifest inside them and murder the crew. i had always thought a combination of quickened spells and FAB II in the walls was used to defend against that, but i was never sure if this was something that ever really got a solution. partially just my own curiosity, partially since the new easy mode high-force spirits really kick standard magical protections in the dick and might make armored vehicles useless again. thoughts?

SR4 had a special, astrally blocking ivy. Just wait until the splatbook for it comes out.

Also, what makes you think that spirits are easier to summon now than they were before?

Just put a ward inside each vehicle. This takes hours, but it lasts weeks.... or until the spirit rams into it. It seems to me that in the long run, the ward makers outlast the spirit summoners.

Can you ward mobile targets in SR5? In SR4, the ward was destroyed the instant you moved.

It always burns down to the fact, that summoning spirits is fast.
Summoning a spirit is just to easy. No matter how you twist it, you can't really counter it unless you use the same trick (spirits).

Doesn't the same apply to Deckers too? I believe that the optimal solution to countering a Decker should be another Decker/TM, and the optimal solution to countering magical threats should be a magical character. Anything else is just players feeling entitled.

[pbangarth]

Can you ward mobile targets in SR5? In SR4, the ward was destroyed the instant you moved.

This was fixed (SR4 FAQ?). Movement in relation to the ward object destroys the ward. If the ward object is inside the vehicle it stays in the same relative position to the ward, and the ward stays up.

[Elfenlied]

This was fixed (SR4 FAQ?). Movement in relation to the ward object destroys the ward. If the ward object is inside the vehicle it stays in the same relative position to the ward, and the ward stays up.

Only if you can keep it perfectly fixed in relation to the vehicle. Which means rough terrain, a lucky hit or a driving glitch could all potentially negate the ward, which makes it a somewhat unreliable strategy.

Could still be viable for mostly stationary vehicles such as a mobile command center, though.

[shinryu]

Only if you can keep it perfectly fixed in relation to the vehicle. Which means rough terrain, a lucky hit or a driving glitch could all potentially negate the ward, which makes it a somewhat unreliable strategy.

Could still be viable for mostly stationary vehicles such as a mobile command center, though.

it seems to be back to the old way in 5th ed, saying the anchor can't move relative to the Gaiasphere. so, yet another retarded move. i am losing my ability to be surprised at them, except by the sheer number of them.

as far as stability, i can think of two solutions:

1) anchor the ward to something that's welded to the floor; should be stable enough?

2) anchor it to something gyrostabilized. object resistance, sure, but you could maybe stick the chunk of virginal hardwood in the gyrostabilization device and then enchant it?. i like the idea that military vehicles now have to have gyrostabilized ward anchors. that's actually man meets magic and machine, not magic fucks man and machine with impunity.

alright, that fix goes in the game for sure. otherwise, anything that isn't airtight to the pilot and passengers is a death trap.

also: biofiber? never made it from 3rd to 4th as far as i can tell, but it really should be in. like fab, but a little easier to imagine being in the walls of places.

[Sendaz]

Can you imagine the first few attempts by the military trying to tackle the whole spirit invading a tank issue back in the early days?

And here sir we have the Go Green Concept where we have strapped special turf to the outside of the tank, as this awakened form of grass and its root system provide an effective barrier to astral movement by these so called spirits.

And the flowers?

Well sir, we thought it would spruce things up a bit.

..............

[shinryu]

Can you imagine the first few attempts by the military trying to tackle the whole spirit invading a tank issue back in the early days?

And here sir we have the Go Green Concept where we have strapped special turf to the outside of the tank, as this awakened form of grass and its root system provide an effective barrier to astral movement by these so called spirits.

And the flowers?

Well sir, we thought it would spruce things up a bit.

..............

you win one (1) internets for this post. warning: there may be a bit of pornography in there.

[Lynchmob]

I figure tanks would be almost wholesale replaced with drones by SR times. Any chance the military gets to effectively reduce manning they take - for better or for worse (politicians deserve more of the blame than the brass). Other than troop transports I can't imagine why too many military vehicles would be manned. Anything carrying nuclear weapons would probably require a living person, naval ships would probably maintain small crews - primarily for maintenance but it costs a lot of money to train and deploy bodies if you can have one rigger running a whole mess of tanks you're in a good spot, and if you got to remove the crew compartment when designing that tank you're in an even better spot.

[Sendaz]

I still see the human factor still being used a lot.

While Drones are used for lots of missions, they are still moderately sized carrying up to a medium payload. Even if some are lost or hijacked by rival rigger/deckers there are limits to what it can do.

When you scale up to tank size, the brass gets nervous about remote control on something with that much potential for mayhem and will want a crew inside, even if its just a single rigger in his cocoon running the show.

As for a lone rigger running a fleet of tanks, again the potential for the controlling rigger being cut off from the units while ECM and ECCM duke it out or flat out hijacked makes it less appealing.