Spirit vs. tank, Did this ever get resolved? Options

[Lynchmob]

If you look at the armament that Predator drones (reaper and avengers more specifically) carry you might reconsider how ready the military is to automate. I realize that modern militaries don't have to worry so much about enemy rigger/deckers hijacking their drones but a dozen hellfire missiles isn't really what I would consider a "medium" payload. Honestly I'm not sure if there is a place in hypothetical 2070ish warzones for traditional tanks. Weapon technology seems to be outpacing armor so if hypothetical man portable anti-tank weaponry is cheap enough then tanks probably won't see too much play.

[Sendaz]

That is normal, whenever damage exceeds armor capability tanks do tend to fall out of favour, at least until armour comes up with something better. But that does not invalidate the tank entirely from the roster of tools to use.

As to modern military not worrying about being hacked, they do take it fairly seriously since it could be possible despite the arguments about encryption levels and such. Which is also why the self destruct is kept on another channel just for that reason. But sooner or later it could well happen and then you will see people screaming about why wasn't there more control over this and so on like so much sheep.

On a fun side note, a satirist wrote up a scenario where the drone itself goes rogue here and is fairly amusing.

[Nath]

also: biofiber? never made it from 3rd to 4th as far as i can tell, but it really should be in.

Shadowrun 4th Edition, page 256 and 340, or Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition, page 264 and 348.

[Tzeentch]

The engagement time windows of modern drones is rather short, and the situational awareness of the pilots is extraordinarily poor (even though pilots claim they are more aware - it's been termed "Predator vision"). There's been some strikes at motorcades but those are usually carefully planned, with boots on the ground guiding the munitions. It remains to be seen how useful armed drones will be in more dynamic, and electronically hostile, environments.

In Shadowrun? Not sure, I haven't looked too closely at it. The old MIJI rules tended to be too complex for their own goods so a lot of people avoided trying to ECM or hack drones, and just shot them.

[thorya]

Shadowrun 4th Edition, page 256 and 340, or Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition, page 264 and 348.

Yeah, at 1000 nuyen/square meter for force 10 biofiber, (assuming that the militaries of the world can ignore availability) it seems the easiest way to defend against spirits and other spells. More likely, you'll see a layer of force 5 or 6 biofiber, cheaper and more easily available. Have they put it in core for SR5, or is it another thing that needs to wait for a splat book?

We use biofiber a lot. Ramming a spirit with a biofibered vehicle or hitting them with a rod made of biofiber or shooting them with biofiber bullets should lead to an opposed roll between the biofiber and the spirit like it crossed a ward (though most people here seem to prefer it to allow the attack to overcome ItNW if they let it be used at all). With so few options for effectively dealing with spirits, especially the Force 12 spirits that terrorists are apparently constantly throwing at anyone they don't like, it seems idiotic that biofiber has not be weaponized. Instead it is just used as an alternative to warding.

[shinryu]

Yeah, at 1000 nuyen/square meter for force 10 biofiber, (assuming that the militaries of the world can ignore availability) it seems the easiest way to defend against spirits and other spells. More likely, you'll see a layer of force 5 or 6 biofiber, cheaper and more easily available. Have they put it in core for SR5, or is it another thing that needs to wait for a splat book?

We use biofiber a lot. Ramming a spirit with a biofibered vehicle or hitting them with a rod made of biofiber or shooting them with biofiber bullets should lead to an opposed roll between the biofiber and the spirit like it crossed a ward (though most people here seem to prefer it to allow the attack to overcome ItNW if they let it be used at all). With so few options for effectively dealing with spirits, especially the Force 12 spirits that terrorists are apparently constantly throwing at anyone they don't like, it seems idiotic that biofiber has not be weaponized. Instead it is just used as an alternative to warding.

biofiber warheads are frigging brilliant. you also win an internet. it's literally carpet bombing something! also there's the part where you need to occasionally take a breather and water your missiles. that's very good.

as far as i know, biofiber and FAB haven't made the leap to 5th. thanks to Nath for the reference for 4th ed, though; i hadn't seen it in street magic at last glance, so i guess that's why i was thinking it wasn't in 4th.

[Nath]

(assuming that the militaries of the world can ignore availability)

A lot of military vehicles have an Availability rating in the 25-35 range, so I would hazard they are also able to acquire additional equipment with similar rating (top biofiber being rating 10 with Availability 30).

[Tzeentch]

I assume a rigger cocoon is not perfectly form fitting, so maybe abstract it to a 2x2m box to get an upper size? So 24 sq m per crewman at most?

[shinryu]

I assume a rigger cocoon is not perfectly form fitting, so maybe abstract it to a 2x2m box to get an upper size? So 24 sq m per crewman at most?

as of arsenal, it sounds pretty tight, if not form fitting:
"It consistsof a seat completely surrounded by fire-resistant ballistic cloth,
reinforced by metal plates to prevent someone from merely
sticking a sword through it, and including cushions and har-
nesses to keep the rigger from rattling around" (p, 142)

so, great for pilots, pretty good for tankers and other drivers, but might not fly for APCs and is probably not preferable for limo services, though with a sufficiently important VIP and VR i suppose it wouldn't make much difference.

[IKerensky]

What crew ?

Seriously, given the level of automation and sensor tech in SR each tank is piloted by one rigger in cocoon and some autopilot programs.

The benefit is enormous, less personnal, smaller tanks, faster tanks, suppression of the need for access and escape and all living space make the vehicule a lot more compact and resilient to damage. Given the price of a MBT, rigging one pilot is nothing.

For APC... I dont see the trouble. The risk is the same than having Spirits materializing in Barracks or any other closed space. The trick is not to get localised or to keep some spirits on Watch.

It also seems that Spirits are like Mage, a very rare sight on the battlefield contrarily to the player group.

About Aztlan vs Amazania remember that a lot of Aztlan troups are Adepts, with focus hand to hand weapons. i am not sure they would be tottaly disarmed versus a spirit.

Anyway Spirit summoning is too easy and common in the game compared to fluff. I think more binding should be required to really get a Spirit to manifest and help. You could summon for service and spell, but physical manifestation and battle should require binding.

[Tzeentch]

What crew ?
Seriously, given the level of automation and sensor tech in SR each tank is piloted by one rigger in cocoon and some autopilot programs.

-- Shadowrun still has an action economy. You would have at least two-three crew in a large combat vehicle for redundancy and efficiency.

[Lynchmob]

What crew ?

I maintain my "What tank?" argument. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Yes I am being overly dismissive. It does seem that most of the open warfare I've read about so far has been regular vs irregular forces though. I haven't gotten all the way through the fluff yet so I maintain the right to completely change my mind.

[Tzeentch]

It seems to be implied that the CAS doesn't use heavy tracked armored vehicles much, their "tank" force are all heavy LAVs. I'm not sure we have enough data points to compare tanks vs their natural enemy yet. Nor has Shadowrun ever presented a very detailed or compelling narrative about Sixth World warfare.

[Lynchmob]

I do like the idea of seeing a lot more LAVs. More of a distributed force approach. Think Chinese navy vs American navy. More LAVs, UAV bombers/interceptors, less carriers and amphibs more destroyers/cruisers/any boat big enough to carry a ASCM/LAM, smaller overall standing armies but more spec warfare oriented.

[shinryu]

It seems to be implied that the CAS doesn't use heavy tracked armored vehicles much, their "tank" force are all heavy LAVs. I'm not sure we have enough data points to compare tanks vs their natural enemy yet. Nor has Shadowrun ever presented a very detailed or compelling narrative about Sixth World warfare.

and those LAVs are retarded, if we're thinking about the things like the stonewall from mil-spec tech. a t-bird like the banshee makes some sense as an armored close air support vehicle, but just the fuel consumption of a flying tank is a bit hard to swallow as practical unless they've got some sort of nuclear air-ram running in those. nothing could stop stonewalls with the stats they had. lofwyr would be pissing his scales if two of them were coming for him. hey, is that a gauss cannon embedded in tank-scale armor flying at mach speed about 20 feet off the ground? shadowrun 4th edition, everybody!

unless you meant LAV like LAV-25, then, yeah, that makes sense. stryker brigade style strategy could still be very useful in the 2070s.

[GloriousRuse]

I would think a fight between standing armies would see the mages die pretty quickly, in an orgy of astrally scouted indirect fire.

1) Each side races through the atsral trying to find enemy magical meatsacks. Remember in world, the actual likelihood of a Magic 4+ mage is something like 1/8000 so, its not like there's a ton to look for.

Even if done on the straight, that's 63 magic 4+ types in a 500,000 man army. if you apply to a standard bellcurve instead of A heavy left distribution for Magic scores, merely 1/1200...or only 415 mages in a 500,000 man army. That's before the payscale for private versus public sector kick in.

MATH
(1/100 awakened, 33% mages = 1/300 mages. Societal inefficiencies like not realizing your a mage, never getting training because your SINless and were never found, etc probably bump that to closer to 1/400. Now apply a heavy left distribution..so magic 3 and less would be about 2 standard distributions of the population, or 95%...so 1/8000 people would be 4+.)


2) Magical Meatsack identifed by astral recon, expend 15k in precision guided munitions from a mortar, tube, drone, plane. Yay. Willing to spend a few million in shells to kill every sorry mother****** mage who comes anywhere close enough to the front lines to be doing the summoning thing? Almost certainly.

3) Those that are left summon spirits. Spirits start dying by the truckload in the face of...well...combat. Spirits decide they aren't playing this game anymore and mages start having exploding head syndrome and conspicously misinterpreted services.

[Tzeentch]

The Stonewall is from Shadowrun, First Edition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

I would think a fight between standing armies would see the mages die pretty quickly, in an orgy of astrally scouted indirect fire.

1) Each side races through the atsral trying to find enemy magical meatsacks. Remember in world, the actual likelihood of a Magic 4+ mage is something like 1/8000 so, its not like there's a ton to look for.

Even if done on the straight, that's 63 magic 4+ types in a 500,000 man army. if you apply to a standard bellcurve instead of A heavy left distribution for Magic scores, merely 1/1200...or only 415 mages in a 500,000 man army. That's before the payscale for private versus public sector kick in.

MATH
(1/100 awakened, 33% mages = 1/300 mages. Societal inefficiencies like not realizing your a mage, never getting training because your SINless and were never found, etc probably bump that to closer to 1/400. Now apply a heavy left distribution..so magic 3 and less would be about 2 standard distributions of the population, or 95%...so 1/8000 people would be 4+.)


2) Magical Meatsack identifed by astral recon, expend 15k in precision guided munitions from a mortar, tube, drone, plane. Yay. Willing to spend a few million in shells to kill every sorry mother****** mage who comes anywhere close enough to the front lines to be doing the summoning thing? Almost certainly.

3) Those that are left summon spirits. Spirits start dying by the truckload in the face of...well...combat. Spirits decide they aren't playing this game anymore and mages start having exploding head syndrome and conspicously misinterpreted services.

Neither side sends their mages out on the astral. Both sides hide their mages behind heavy wards and far behind friendly lines. I think that mages and other Awakened would be quite weak in combat zones unless they are very skilled and/or talented - Magic 6+ or with Initiation, due to the very fact that combat zones are areas with not insignificant Background Counts.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Neither side sends their mages out on the astral. Both sides hide their mages behind heavy wards and far behind friendly lines. I think that mages and other Awakened would be quite weak in combat zones unless they are very skilled and/or talented - Magic 6+ or with Initiation, due to the very fact that combat zones are areas with not insignificant Background Counts.

Are they? I know what the descriptions say, yet at the same time apparently most of the Chicago crap zone is BGC 2, the barrens are 1-2 as well. I'd say the quick fluff of a BGC does not match the reality of how it is used in the game supplements. Kind of like I doubt heavy rain will actually give a noise 2 in any adventuress.

[GloriousRuse]

Neither side sends their mages out on the astral. Both sides hide their mages behind heavy wards and far behind friendly lines. I think that mages and other Awakened would be quite weak in combat zones unless they are very skilled and/or talented - Magic 6+ or with Initiation, due to the very fact that combat zones are areas with not insignificant Background Counts.

So..can you send a spirit out through your own ward?

The idea of the astral recon is to find the enemy, then relay those coordinates to the artillery/drones/bombers/whatnot so that the mages can be squelched with firepower. If you find a warded spot that spirits keep getting summoned from..might as well give it a battery 6.

[Tzeentch]

1) Each side races through the atsral trying to find enemy magical meatsacks. Remember in world, the actual likelihood of a Magic 4+ mage is something like 1/8000 so, its not like there's a ton to look for.

The bodies are probably back at a heavily defended base. They're no easier to take out than other command staff, harder in many ways. What are they using to trace the astral form back to the body? Why couldn't the enemy just eliminate your entire command staff if it was a matter of just flying in some drones? The body of the mage can even be on the other side of the planet. At "slow" running speed the mage can travel at 6,000 km/h (13,400 mph) so he doesn't have to be even in the same theatre of battle.

3) Those that are left summon spirits. Spirits start dying by the truckload in the face of...well...combat. Spirits decide they aren't playing this game anymore and mages start having exploding head syndrome and conspicously misinterpreted services.

Spirits can't 'misinterpret' services like an evil genie (at least, I don't see any allowance for that beyond GM fiat in Grimoire and Street Magic and such). Currently they also cannot spend Edge to resist summoning by "bad" mages like they can in SR4.

[RHat]

Spirits can't 'misinterpret' services like an evil genie (at least, I don't see any allowance for that beyond GM fiat in Grimoire and Street Magic and such). Currently they also cannot spend Edge to resist summoning by "bad" mages like they can in SR4.

Nowhere is it written that they adhere to your intent rather than your word - and for magical creatures, the idea that Exact Words can't be an issue just seems wrong. As for Edge, the rule against Edge use applies to summoned or bound spirits. A spirit in the process of being summoned is not yet either, and may still use its Edge.

[Tzeentch]

Nowhere is it written that they adhere to your intent rather than your word - and for magical creatures, the idea that Exact Words can't be an issue just seems wrong. As for Edge, the rule against Edge use applies to summoned or bound spirits. A spirit in the process of being summoned is not yet either, and may still use its Edge.

That's certainly an interesting interpretation of the rules and text in Street Magic and elsewhere. "When a spirit owes services and a service is requested, however, the spirit must obey."

And no, you still haven't explained yourself around the text box in SR5 that says the spirits don't spend Edge. You know, the one that says "Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them)." But feel free to play with that house rule and your creation of a pre-summoning step that doesn't exist in SR5 at present.

So other then GM fiat and house rules, I'm not seeing much problem with throwing spirits into the grinder.

[RHat]

And no, you still haven't explained yourself around the text box in SR5 that says the spirits don't spend Edge. You know, the one that says "Summoned and bound spirits don’t have their own Edge pools (or if they do, they don’t use them)."

Actually I have. Summoned and bound spirits don't use Edge, but the spirit doesn't qualify as EITHER until the summoner has succeeded on the Summoning test.

As for spirits and "exact words" issues, consider this question: if there should be a conflict between the letter of a request, and the intent of it, which do you think a spirit is bound by?

[Tzeentch]

Actually I have. Summoned and bound spirits don't use Edge, but the spirit doesn't qualify as EITHER until the summoner has succeeded on the Summoning test.

As for spirits and "exact words" issues, consider this question: if there should be a conflict between the letter of a request, and the intent of it, which do you think a spirit is bound by?

There's precisely ONE place in all of Shadowrun canon (that I'm aware of) that mentions anything about spirits even trying to misinterpret commands. And that's in SR4A when it mentions it under glitches.

Shadowrun has always been clear that spirits are pretty smart and can figure out what you mean, or your character is sufficiently detailed in explaining it. You don't need to write a paper contract out with the GM to explain exactly what you mean by "guard this door."

As for spirits, if they wanted spirits to resist summoning with Edge they would have said it. If you want make an argument by absence, the books also don't say that demon rats don't molest your characters in their sleep, so I guess that's what happens.