Quick, Possibly Stupid Priority Question Options

[Umidori]

Can you take Magic E, and then spend your Special Attribute points on Magic?

For example, taking Troll Metatype at B gives you 0 Special Attribute Points, forcing you to take A,C, or D to get any Magic rating at all. If you could instead take Troll A and Magic E, you could spend some of your 5 Special Attribute Points on Magic, and have a different set of remaining, unchosen priorities to take for the other categories.

This would also allows Magicians and Technomancers to start with less than 3 Magic or Resonance if they wanted.

~Umi

[Medicineman]

Can you take Magic E, and then spend your Special Attribute points on Magic?
No You can't
MAGIC E = NO Magic !

For example, taking Troll Metatype at B gives you 0 Special Attribute Points, forcing you to take A,C, or D to get any Magic rating at all.
thats why You don't create a Troll mage with the Priority System but with Karma or with BP (and thats why You have to wait for Running Harder/Faster/Whatever)

Hough
Medicineman

[ElFenrir]

Troll Mages work fine with the priority system. Magic A, Troll B, Skills C, Attributes D, Resources. E. B 5, A 2, R 2, S 5 C 3 I 3 L 5 W 5.

Reaction to 3 with 15 Bonus Karma. Free Magic skills and the whole 9. 10 Bonus Karma for 20k, then grab some more via -Qualities. Works perfectly well, and arguably a Troll mage has an easier time taking Attributes low than other races. Or you can go Troll A, Magic B, and use those 6 SA points to boost Magic to 6 and start with a pretty fat Edge. (Starting with 4 5's, and some 3's with a 2 after bonus karma are some good stats.)

But yeah, you need to essentially take Magic A through D to have any rating at all. E is the same as saying 'Mundane.'

[Umidori]

Where is this limitation spelled out in the rules? Because I can't find anything actually saying that Magic E = No Magic.

It could just as easily be argued that Magic E = No Free Magic from their Priority Level, thus necessitating the spending of Special Attribute Points (meaning you have a lower Edge) or the spending of Karma (meaning you have less Karma to spend elsewhere). That opportunity cost should be plenty balancing.

~Umi

[Thanee]

Where is this limitation spelled out in the rules? Because I can't find anything actually saying that Magic E = No Magic.

It says Magic E: --

So, if you look up what type of Awakened you can be with priority E ... there is nothing.

You have to be a Magician, Mystic Adept or Adept, in order to have Magic.

Bye
Thanee

[Shortstraw]

To be fair you have a magic score of 0 not - so you could increase it. However you would get no benefit from it (unless they reintroduce latent awakening in which case you case if it triggered you would start with a higher magic than otherwise).

[forgarn]

Where is this limitation spelled out in the rules? Because I can't find anything actually saying that Magic E = No Magic.

It could just as easily be argued that Magic E = No Free Magic from their Priority Level, thus necessitating the spending of Special Attribute Points (meaning you have a lower Edge) or the spending of Karma (meaning you have less Karma to spend elsewhere). That opportunity cost should be plenty balancing.

~Umi

The next column of the Priority Table is Magic or Resonance. This is a column for players who want to be magic users (adepts, aspected magicians, mages, shamans, and mystic adepts) or technomancers. Players who desire none of these character options choose Priority E for this column.

Bolding mine for emphasis.

[SpellBinder]

Doesn't exactly say you're expressly forbidden from buying a Magic/Resonance attribute if you want one anyway.

[forgarn]

Doesn't exactly say you're expressly forbidden from buying a Magic/Resonance attribute if you want one anyway.

True, but by reading the chart, you cannot be a magician (full blown) without taking Magic C in the priority. To be an aspected Magician you can take D. What can you be with E? I say nothing.

This is really no different than if 4e where you had to have the 15bp quality Magician to have access to a Magic rating to cast spells. Here you have no rating in Magic with priority E.

[SpellBinder]

I see it quite differently. It's apples & oranges in this part between SR4 & SR5. SR4 was quite clear in the qualities; from SR4a, page 91, "A character with this quality is a magician and starts with a Magic attribute of 1." for example. It states quite clearly that without the quality you're not a magician.

SR5 is a bit ambiguous here. True it doesn't specify one way or the other, which usually leads one to believe you can do it because you're not expressly forbidden from doing it. In the priority system, The Magic/Resonance is pretty much the dump choice for players who aren't going to be awakened/emergent.

[Lobo0705]

For what it is worth, the IMO it is clear that if you pick Magic E then you are a Mundane.

In 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions when they had Priority Builds you had to take Magic A (and then later on allowed you to pick Magic B to be an adept) but if you picked it lower you were a Mundane.

SR5 just gives you more options to be an awakened character - but Magic E means you can't use Magic.

[Larsine]

Where is this limitation spelled out in the rules? Because I can't find anything actually saying that Magic E = No Magic.

It's spelled "Don't be a dick"

[Jaid]

let's suppose for just a moment that we're going to be completely insane and assume that if the book doesn't say you can't buy up your magic, you can do it (which is a stupid assumption, but for the sake of discussion, i'll consider it possible).

you then take human A, for the sake of argument, and boost your magic to 6.

but you're not a magician, or an aspected magician, or an adept, or a mystic adept... you don't actually have anything whatsoever that you can do with the magic. you have a magic 6, but absolutely no abilities based on magic. the only effect is that now should you lose essence, you lose magic... but since your magic has no effect, it doesn't matter anyways.

[Umidori]

It's spelled "Don't be a dick"

Wow, way to take offense to a simple, entirely legitimate question.

~Umi

[Umidori]

Yet another reason to dislike Priority, then. No flexibility, no capacity to produce characters that fall outside of "expected" ranges.

Under this system, you can't play a Magician with a Magic rating of only 2 or 1. Why? For balance? What if I want to play a hedgemage, or someone who has only recently Awakened and not built up their Magical powers yet? Or what if I just want the option to have Magic later on in my character's career, but at the start I'm more concerned with other skills, like combat or hacking or social? Why can I leave chargen with literally half of my Attributes as 1s if I want, but I can't leave it with my Magic at 1?

~Umi

[Lynchmob]

Not a perfect solution but for your hedgemage/newly Awakened you could just put C into Magic and then pick up one cheap piece of cyberware. I always had the impression that some level of augmentation was common enough that you could just imply that your character got his datajack/implanted commlink before he Awakened.

[RHat]

Yet another reason to dislike Priority, then. No flexibility, no capacity to produce characters that fall outside of "expected" ranges.

Under this system, you can't play a Magician with a Magic rating of only 2 or 1. Why? For balance? What if I want to play a hedgemage, or someone who has only recently Awakened and not built up their Magical powers yet? Or what if I just want the option to have Magic later on in my character's career, but at the start I'm more concerned with other skills, like combat or hacking or social? Why can I leave chargen with literally half of my Attributes as 1s if I want, but I can't leave it with my Magic at 1?

~Umi

Take a datajack.

[Sendaz]

The main problem I would see is by implying that Magic E = No Free Magic, that implies a Magic/Resonance state of 0 which is different than simply mundane and that this 0 state still counts as magical/resonating, since you are then shoving points into it to bump it to the 1-3 state.

However that would also mean there would be potential for every single person who took E and left it at 0 to somehow build that Stat post chargen. Granted it would be fairly difficult and I do not believe this is what you intended, but I would be willing to bet at least one player would look at this and go, okay.. a 0 now, but how can I get it up? I would not care to think it would be possible to initiate as a 0, but with a spirit/ spooky ghost in the machine type summoned/compiled by another helping through the process, who knows?

It is a good thought, but could be more of a headache down the road.

[Umidori]

Mundanes have 0 Magic.

If you don't have 0 Magic, you aren't Mundane.

~Umi

[RHat]

Mundanes don't have 0 magic, they don't have a magic score at all. Minor difference.

[Sendaz]

Depends on how you look at it.

Mundanes do not possess a Magic or Resonance Stat, period. You have it or you do not since it is an additional stat that only exists when you put priority/karma/cocopuffs (yes the cocopuffgen system keeps characters crunchy even in milk) into it.

Look at any non-magical/non technomancer character writeup of the stats from Street Legends or similar, and you wont see Magic 0 or Resonance 0, because it doesn't exist within them. They do not even have the base stat itself. That potential just isn't there to even quantify a zero state for it.

[tjn]

Yet another reason to dislike Priority, then. No flexibility, no capacity to produce characters that fall outside of "expected" ranges.

Do you use a hammer to get a screw into place? Do you then declare your dislike for all hammers because they don't have the flexibility to hammer in pieces of metal "that fall outside of 'expected' ranges?"

Seriously, priority is designed to produce highly skilled, but narrow in focus, specialists, who are designed to work together in a group of other specialists who cover for their weaknesses. Yet your surprised when it breaks when you try and force the system to specifically create a character who's primary role is their weakness?

Under this system, you can't play a Magician with a Magic rating of only 2 or 1. Why?

Because that's not what the system was designed to facilitate. Talk to your GM. Compromise on an alternate way of creating characters. Use Karmagen if that floats your boat, or just assign stats with whatever stat you feel would best mirror your character and don't bother with a character creation system at all.

What if I want to play a hedgemage, or someone who has only recently Awakened and not built up their Magical powers yet? Or what if I just want the option to have Magic later on in my character's career, but at the start I'm more concerned with other skills, like combat or hacking or social?

If you want a RAW answer, take magic at the lowest possible priority and don't put any other points into magic.
Or talk your GM into using your interpretation of the E slot for that campaign.
Or use a different (or no) system to create characters.
Or wait for the expanded magic and/or runner companion books to come out

Why can I leave chargen with literally half of my Attributes as 1s if I want, but I can't leave it with my Magic at 1?

~Umi

Because it assumes that you're trying to build specialists that are at least passable at their role, and if you want one of those roles to be Magic, you should have a passable rating in Magic. There's no way for the system to put a check on all Sammies to make sure they start with a passable Body or a Face with a passable Charisma- but if it could, it would have them as well. The system assumes that if half of your attributes are at 1, the others are all damn near maxed, which means the character should at least be passable in at least one role.

Priority is not broken or bad or whatever when you purposefully attempt to use it in a manner it's not intended for. To (ab)use the popular gaming terms, its gamist in nature (and only slightly removed from a class system) and yet you're overlaying your simulationist expectations and becoming frustrated when it can't meet those expectations.

[Smash]

Yet another reason to dislike Priority, then. No flexibility, no capacity to produce characters that fall outside of "expected" ranges.

Under this system, you can't play a Magician with a Magic rating of only 2 or 1. Why? For balance? What if I want to play a hedgemage, or someone who has only recently Awakened and not built up their Magical powers yet? Or what if I just want the option to have Magic later on in my character's career, but at the start I'm more concerned with other skills, like combat or hacking or social? Why can I leave chargen with literally half of my Attributes as 1s if I want, but I can't leave it with my Magic at 1?

~Umi

While it's not explicit it's pretty heavily implied that you can't do what you're suggesting. When you think about it, given the choice of being able to put points into edge or magic, wouldn't you always pick magic? A re-roll or the ability to cast spells, summon spirits or turn people into fruit punch with my hands?

That just seems like a no-brainer.

[tasti man LH]

...and nvm the fact that it's pretty much impossible to get ANY attribute at a 0 (unless under the effect of a spell or critter power, and even those are temporary).

Plus, it's been fairly obvious before that if you got any attribute at 0, that essentially meant that you don't have it.

So not sure why you're getting the idea of boosting Magic at 0, if you technically don't have the attribute to begin with.

EDIT: Reading through again, it says that if your Magic hits 0, but your overall Max is still above 0, you could still raise it back up with karma. But if you let the Max hit 0, they you're done; no more magic for you.

[Umidori]

Do you use a hammer to get a screw into place? Do you then declare your dislike for all hammers because they don't have the flexibility to hammer in pieces of metal "that fall outside of 'expected' ranges?"

You act as though I chose the hammer, instead of having it forced upon me without being given any other options. So your analogy is total bunk.

Talk to your GM. Compromise on an alternate way of creating characters. Use Karmagen if that floats your boat, or just assign stats with whatever stat you feel would best mirror your character and don't bother with a character creation system at all.

I am the GM, there is no Karmagen in 5E yet, and bot the RAW and RAI are ambiguous. I'm trying to figure out the system as it exists, not make up my own. If I want to play a different system, I'll go play a different system. Your advice and suggestions therefor amount to "shut up or GTFO", and are not only unhelpful, but actively toxic.

Why do you even care, anyway? Did my comments really necessitate leaping to the defense of Priority the way you did? I don't like Priority gen, and I'm stuck using it, so I'm entitled to my displeasure at this situation.

~Umi