Karma Costs of Priorities, Analysis of Karma spent for each Priority Table Choice Options

[ElFenrir]

Well, I'll test out 100. I can say anything less than that, even with paying the high stat prices, was too powerful. 100 is the absolute minimum. I was working with 130 for several builds, and they came out quite fine. Here's a quick example of a 130 Karma cost troll under this system, building in a 'Textbook' manner. Actually first, let me run down the costs I've been doing test builds with:

[ Spoiler ]

Karmagen Test(730)

20 Karma(Magician, Mystic Adept)

10 Karma(Adept, Aspected Magician, Technomancer)

2000 nuyen/Karma, max 470,000(to compensate for the lack of Bonus Karma). 235 max.

Up to 25 Karma spent on + Qualities, can gain up to 25 from Negative Qualities

Attributes: 360 can get 8 4's down the line. I'll make this 385 max for Humans(to allow 1 5 if a person wants to play a character with greater natural potential). 1 Max Attribute is allowed(not counting Edge, Resonance, and Magic. Also, this limit does NOT include Edge, Magic, or Resonance.)

Meta Costs I will be calculating as follows: Add up how much Karma they would spend to get the stats that they did. Subtract 5 Karma for each non stat negative they get. So Elves would cost 10+25=35 Karma. Orks would cost 45+25=70 Karma. Dwarves would cost 25+25+10=60, -10 for 20% Cost of Living and Lower Movement Rate, for 50. Trolls cost 70+70=140, -10 for Cost of Living and Lower Movement, or 130.

Spells, MA PPs, and Complex Forms are 5 Karma each.

Knowledge Karma is Int + Log x 5. Brings it more in line with the old number and not the new too-low number.

Contacts cost Loyalty + Connection x 2, and players get Cha x 6 Karma to spend on them. (Of course, as always, more can be added.

Allowed Attributes to be spent are 385+Race cost.

[ Spoiler ]

730 Karma


Body: 9(30+35+40+45)=150
Agility: 3(25)
Reaction: 3(25)
Strength: 9=150
Charisma: 2(10)
Intuition: 3(25)
Logic: 2(10)
Willpower: 3(25)
Total Karma Spent So Far: 130(Race) + 420(Attributes)=550 of 730 Karma.

10 Karma to Edge

Athletics Skill Group: 2(15)
Blades: 6(42)
Longarms(Shotguns): 3(+2) (19)
Etiquette: 3(12)
Intimidation: 3(12)
First Aid: 1(2)
Sneaking: 2(6)
Unarmed Combat: 3(12)
Pilot Ground Craft: 2(6)
Perception: 3(12)

Total: 138 Karma
Remaining: 32

If you want an equivalent, he popped about 23 points on Attributes in that build. This Troll has an extra Edge than a Priority version would have, he has like 1 less Skill and Attribute point, but he has more nuyen(that he didn't spend Bonus Karma on). That being said, 30 Karma would just grant him a few more skills, maybe bumping those 2's to 3's, or a 2 to 3 and a couple of skills, or extra nuyen. I could try it out and see how it feels for the other troll builds I did as well(I did build a 'softer' Mage troll, and a 'Medium, nothing weighed too heavily' troll as well.) This guy above has all his bases covered-he's definitely specialized, but he's actually not deficient in important things(he has a couple of etiquette skills, a stealth skill, and even First Aid and driving).

I suspect knocking it down an extra 30 would be okay, but at the same time Trolls would then follow a different formula as I was working with there. If I changed how that formula worked, then I'd have to change Dwarves as well and then Dwarves would be FAR too cheap. Still, I might be willing enough to say 'screw the formula' and handwave the trolls to 100 if I think they won't be too overpowered. I suspect they won't be, as this guy with the 2's as 3's, for example, won't be doing anything crazy. They came out as 130 from the formula, so I decided to run with it to test it.

Believe it or not, the other race I'm not convinced about are Dwarves. Now I like Dwarves. But I will fully admit, holy crap do they get a lot of stuff for a low price. In ways, they're better than Orks, though Orks end up traditionally costing more since they lacked the Dwarves' lower movement and extra money they need to pay. But Dwarves get less minuses, are the best Hermetic spellcasters in the game, period(I believe they're also the best enchanters and anything else that's Wil+Log), they get a small extra benny of Poison/Disease resist(which is more situational but when it comes up it's nice), and some Thermo vision to round it out, and now they've been buffed with an extra +1 to Body over what they used to have. Call me crazy but it's kinda funny how good they really are, yet they manage to escape scrutiny from the folks talking about metahuman power levels. Maybe being short does help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (To be fair, I never thought they were overpowered, but when I look at them and look at other races, I always say 'Man, Dwarves are the one race that can be this awesome and not be considered overpowered.')

EDIT: Did a few more tests here.

[ Spoiler ]

130: Troll
20: Magician
10: Edge
100: Magic
=260

Left: 470 Karma

B: 5
A: 3
R: 3
S: 5
C: 3
I: 4
L: 5
W: 5
E: 2
M: 6
Total on Primary Attributes: 260
Left: 210

Okay, now it's cutting close. But that's a pretty good set of attributes up above, and he DOES have max Magic. He even has 2 Edge.
Spells: 50 Karma(10)
Resources: 15 Karma(30,000)
145: Skills

Conjuring Skill Group: 3
Spellcasting: 5
Counterspelling: 5
Perception: 3
Pistols: 2
Clubs: 2
Gymnastics: 2
Arcana: 2
Etiquette: 3
Assensing: 2

1 Karma Remaining

This works out, I think. Now, let's say this troll was 100 instead. He'd have maybe a Conjuring Group of 4 instead of 3(it would be 20 Karma), with a couple other 2's in there. Or maybe he'll up other skills. In any case, yeah, not bad really. Not overpowering.

For another test, let's do Mid the Troll. Mid the troll is not going to be as Textbook as textbook, nor as wheezy as the mage. Mid's going to go for a bit more of a generalist build, though he'll be good at shootin' and clonkin' people with a staff lets say.

[ Spoiler ]

Troll: 130 Karma
Edge: 25 Karma
Left: 575 Karma

B: 7(65)
A: 4(45)
R: 3(25)
S: 7(65)
C: 3(25)
I: 4(45)
L: 3(25)
W: 3(25)
Total: 340
Remaining: 235 Karma
Not bad. Nothing under a 3. Even has a 3 Edge this time. 235 Karma left is actually a fair amount. We're going to stick with the Generalist idea and give him a couple of Skill Groups in here, even if they're a little more expensive.

Firearms Skill Group: 4(50)
Stealth Skill Group: 2(15)
Clubs(Staffs): 4(+2)
Gymnastics: 3
Perception: 3
Etiquette: 3
Negotiation: 3
Pilot Ground Craft: 2
Hardware: 3
First Aid: 2
(169)

And he'll spend 66 on Resources, giving him 132,000, enough to get him a small variety of cyberware(perhaps to up his Agility to help his firearms), and other odds and ends. Looks like a fine character to me. No glaring weaknesses, though he doesn't have any amazing strengths. This guy now with an extra 30 Karma could end up a bit better in ways; another 60,000 nuyen is a lot for stuff like cyberware or whatnot. But...eh, I don't think it's that overpowered.

[ Spoiler ]

B: 10(200)
A: 4(45)
R: 3(25)
S: 9(150)
C: 3(25)
I: 3 **
L: 3 **
W: 3 **

Total: 520

Now this is a bit much, especially when you add in his race. 100 karma for his race(but keep in mind, his Attribute cap would then end up 480 instead of 510), but then he'd end up with more. I actually think this is okay. If he really wanted to keep the 10 and the 9, he could drop Agility to 3, and Logic and Charisma to 2 each, and end up with what is, IMO, an appropriate stat spread for wanting to weigh two stats that heavily. He'd be up to 580 Karma spent total, and have 150 karma to spend on other stuff.

After this, I do think that perhaps 100 Karma might be better for Trolls here. Judging by the ones I tossed together, it won't be overpowered and will still allow the variety. And again, I'm convinced looking at these that there is plenty of variety, that they can have actual skillsets with other stuff, and they can have plenty while still getting big stats if they want. I indeed do not see the problem that everyone was seeing back in SR4(which, again, may have had something to do with more expensive skills.)

EDIT: I also forgot-besides the more expensive skills(10 for a new group instead of 5, 4 Karma instead of 2, and new Knowledge Skill points even cost 2)-was that you did not, by RAW, get free Knowledge points nor free Contact points under this system. So right off the bat, if you had 2 skill groups(even at 1), you paid 5 more Karma each, and 8 more skills were an extra 16 Karma, for 26 more Karma that you had to pay compared to this. Couple THAT with the fact that if you wanted knowledge skills-even a reasonable amount(say, 4 at rating 3), that was another 28 Karma. Then two reasonable(3/2) contacts would have run another 20 Karma, for a grand total of, in this case, 74 Karma. I think all of this is what added up to the old German Errata system being unkind to the big-stat metas. In this system, even though Trolls cost 20 more karma and I'm running with 730 instead of 750-that's still over 30 Karma that's freed up compared to the other system, which can go a long way(especially with cheaper Skills.)

I'll post up some more tests with other races I did, btw, and they're checking out nicely. The only thing I'm debating is perhaps 2500 nuyen/Karma, which would cost 188 to max out instead of 235; however I'm wondering how much more powerful that would make the characters. That frees up 47 Karma as it is if I go that route and would require some testing with the samples I've made up so far.

[Surukai]

The reason for a karma chargen is to close the vast gap between boring min-max and sane characters.

The priority (and BP) had the glaring flaw that not only do you get a more specialized character by getting either 1 from max in your stat but it is also much much cheaper in value. You not only get better stats for free, you earn bonus for being a munchkin idiot player.

Being the best is incentive enough to minmax, don't give bulk discount too!

Example:
Priority: A skills, B Troll, C Attributes, D Resources, E Magic

46/10 skills means I get 7 skills at rating 6 + one rating 4, and one group to 6 and one to 4. Cost: 469 karma
Troll makes my attributes awsome by transforming one 6 to a 10 (Body and Strength) and one 5 to a 9. That upgrade is worth 320 karma.
Attributes, one 6, 2x5 + one 4 (for 5+4+4+3 = 16 points) is worth 280 karma (the upgrade for 6->10 for troll is above)
Resouces (1 karma per 2000 cash) is worth 25 karma, magic none and then bonus 25 more.

This (wierd) troll is worth 1139 karma.

Same priority, but human instead buys 10 groups to rating 1 (50 karma) and 46 skills to rating 1 (92 karma). There are over 80 skills listed so no risk to run out of options there. 142 karma.
Human makes his edge to 7, that is worth 140 karma
Attributes is 3 in eveything, worth 200 karma and then 50 more for resources + starting bonus. Total worth 532 karma.

That is more than twice as much for the "min-max-troll" compared to the jack of no trades human with same prio.


Granted, few would build a human that sucks THAT Much, but there is still HUNDREDS of karma "lost" if you don't dump all stats you don't max and go all in on any skills you get.


Simple suggestion would be to give karma to be spent only on attributes for priorities instead so it looks like this:

Metatype: no "Change", but ALL Bonuses are applied before attributes are bought, so trolls get strength and body 5 for free, but have to pay from there. (10 is expensive, but still cheaper than ANYONE ELSE since orcs need to pay for exceptional attribute and whatnot to get the same result, stfu)

(Same as getting one 6, as many 5's as possible end leftover in one as human) I.e. the minmax human see no change, but the proper characters se a gain. Superstat metatypes see a raise in cost for a slight 'nerf' to be less trivial OP choice). Skills are just the same idea, but slightly rounded down to represent that you really shouldn't just dump 6's in everything you can. (total rounddown is still small so even the classic munchkin char see no real change, but everyone who doesn't build a retarded freak will see a gain in capabilities!)

Attributes: A: 425, B 350, C: 280, D: 250, E: 215
Skills: A: 450, B: 300, C: 200, D: 140, E 120

The rest are left unchanged. There are "issues" there too but they are compareably tiny to this. One could be arsed to fix the metatype bonus to edge/magic/Resonance to fit the theme but since you typically have only one stat there to buy it will not change much so I left it out for simplicity.

[Jhaiisiin]

One of the arguments that's come up in the past (and indeed has hindered Karma gen systems) is the disagreement on the value of each attribute. "Strength is less useful than Agility, and should cost less" is one phrase that seriously stalled talks in the past.

[Surukai]

In SR5 the utter crappiness for Strength is greatly reduced. With more emphasis on both +Armor, Carrying capacity, Recoil comp and non-pathetic damage scaling makes it less of a lackluster stat that it was in previou edition.

My problem has always been that there is a strange gap between chargen and charadvancement where doing things in the wrong order (like starting with Charisma 2 and Agility 5) is cripplingly worse than starting with Agility 6 and Charisma 1 and spending only 10 karma to get Charisma 2 instead of the massive 30 needed to "fix" the mistake of not maxing Agility to 6 instead with chargen points.

STrength 10 from start (50 karma 9->10) is a given compared to the still cheap Charisma 2 (10 karma). Five times "stupid" to not go full stereotypical minmax troll and fix the stats with some karma later. Such backwards incentives hurts my brain.

[ElFenrir]

Yeah, I remember that one. There are games, now, that have actually done something with that-I know GURPS-I forget what edition since I don't play it, but I more read about it-had Dex and...Int was it? Cost more than Health and Strength, since those other stats weighed heavier.

Now, in Shadowrun, if you measure pound for pound, Agility and Logic link to more skills than any other Attribute. Right under them are a mix of Charisma, Intuition, and Magic actually. The stats with the fewest linked skills? Body and Strength. Now, those two have their uses. Strength helps melee damage, as well as recoil. Body of course helps keep you alive. Willpower is like your 'Mental Body' which helps vs. magic(though mundanes are still in trouble if there's no counterspeller around.)

Problem is here, figuring out how to weigh the stats. If it's flat out by how many skills are linked, Agility and Logic would be ranked the highest. But Logic is more circumstantial. If you aren't playing a tech-oriented character, you can get away with an average Logic and take some of the more important Logic oriented skills to you.

Then there's the case of Reaction and Intuition. Both of these help keep you alive as much as-if not MORE than-Body, since they are your defense roll, and if you get enough hits here(ties to defender, even), the attack doesn't even hit you. These stats also affect your Initiative, and Reaction of course is a stat of choice for vehicle-oriented characters. So I do think that you have to look at stats as more than just linked skills. I mean my own personal rundown on them:

Body: Despite not having many linked skills, it's good for everyone. Helps out Physical limits.
Agility: The best stat for combat oriented characters of all stripes, and it also links to things like Stealth.
Reaction: Great for everyone, even better for vehicle oriented types. Also helps out Physical limits.
Strength: More limited use. Only highly useful for unarmed characters, fairly useful for gunners and weapon based characters(a Katana, for example, can be pretty nasty in the hands of someone with average Strength, especially if they're throwing a lot of dice for it.) However there are ways around this stat in melee, in particular through the use of shock gloves and stun batons. However, this stat doubled DOES form the basis for your Physical Limit.
Charisma: Most useful for Faces, Conjurers, and Shamans. Everyone can get some use out of it, at least-social skills are well useful for any class. Forms basis for Social Limit.
Intuition: Like Reaction, it's great for everyone's survival, links to Perception, and helps avoid surprise. Also adds to Initiative like Reaction. Also helps Mental Limit.
Logic: A stat with a whole lot of linked skills that's great for people focusing on them, also for Hermetic mages. Of limited use to others, though like Strength it forms the basis for your Mental Limit(and with both Logic and Strength, they likely form the basis for limit *because* of their limited use.)
Willpower: Overall good for anyone to have, helps out both Mental and Social limits, and great for any mage regardless of Tradition.

Now, with all of this-those Physical and Mental limits come into play more often for specialized characters-and for the Physical limit, if you're using weapons, you're using the Weapon's accuracy and not your own Physical limit.

That being said, I'm not sure if I'd want to go through the headache and figure out variable Karma costs for stats.

[PriorityKarmaGen]

Attributes: A: 425, B 350, C: 280, D: 250, E: 215
Skills: A: 450, B: 300, C: 200, D: 140, E 120

If you want to use a hybrid priority karma system, the karma increase each priority provides must be the same no matter what category it's used on. Otherwise spending Priority D on Skills instead of Attributes is stupid because you only gain 20 karma instead of 35. Instead, try this system:

TLDR: Characters seem to be built with roughly ~745 or 750 (748 or 753?) karma. Priority A adds 225 karma, Priority B adds 140 or 135 karma (only really affects the derived cost of Trolls), Priority C adds 70 karma, Priority D adds 25 karma, and Priority E adds 0 karma. Additionally, players start with ~165 karma in Attributes, ~90 karma in Skills, 10 karma in Metatype/Special Attributes, and maybe 3 karma in Resources. Together with the 25 extra karma all characters get, that adds up to 745-753 depending on your assumptions.

[Wakshaani]

If you want to make Strength vital, you can do it in one move.

Make max armor Strength * 3. Every /3 above that, you get the -1 die to physical skills for being encumbered.

Just like that, you see tons of people drop down to Armored CLothes to match their 2 Strength, the Armored Vest becomes the normal gear (Str 3, Armor 9), and Orks/Trolls start looking like the impressive walls of damage absorbtion that they are, looming over Elves that are faster and more accurate but fragile due to human-levels of Strength.

I highly suggest it as a house rule.

[ElFenrir]

If you want to make Strength vital, you can do it in one move.

Make max armor Strength * 3. Every /3 above that, you get the -1 die to physical skills for being encumbered.

Just like that, you see tons of people drop down to Armored CLothes to match their 2 Strength, the Armored Vest becomes the normal gear (Str 3, Armor 9), and Orks/Trolls start looking like the impressive walls of damage absorbtion that they are, looming over Elves that are faster and more accurate but fragile due to human-levels of Strength.

I highly suggest it as a house rule.

I'm not into this, myself. I like making Strength useful, but I don't like stereotyping races so much. (My elves are NOT fragile little guys, but walls of strength and damage. They're stronger than my usual troll or ork, whom I play as brainy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) But I'm quite fine with how Strength is now, to be honest. Orks and Trolls have enough as it is, IMHO-Orks are already one of the more solid overall races of the game due to the fact they get very little minuses and can really work out as about anything, and I've been trying to get away from stereotyping Trolls even more, not toward, but that's just me.(Hence why I decided in Karmagen, with the new system, giving free Knowledge and Contact points, that having them buy up from 5 is not the disadvantage that it used to be. It works perfectly fine now.)

[Surukai]

If you want to use a hybrid priority karma system, the karma increase each priority provides must be the same no matter what category it's used on. Otherwise spending Priority D on Skills instead of Attributes is stupid because you only gain 20 karma instead of 35. Instead, try this system:

The list I posted was to match the current priority system foremost, that way it is essentially compatible with the current system. (Except that less overfocused munchkincharacters come out far less behind with karma since they don't get a huge penalty for spreading out their character a bit and avoiding stereotype races where you 'have' to max out any attribute your race has bonus on or take a permanent huge dent in your character's "worth".)

[Voran]

Thanks for doing this, I had a feeling looking at the charts that it was going to be 'most efficient' to simply make a human variant or maybe an elf. In other cases the benefits of metahumanity...just don't seem worth it. The 'bonus' attributes of say strength/body from ork/troll isn't really seen unless you plug points into it (many many) which leaves basically buying an ork for the...lower attribute max in areas and what..low light vision? A troll gets that +reach, but the x2 lifestyle costs is potentially murderrrrrr. Likewise, any metatype that does provide enhanced vision of a sort, is kinda a waste if you're planning on going cyber with it. If you're going to rip out your eyeballs anyway, who cares what your base bonus sight mode is? Maybe dwarf, but yknow, short people got no souls, and all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)