Flying the unfriendly skies for magicians, Surehand is a name of terrorist descent, sir! Options

[shinryu]

if i seem obsessed with magical terrorism, i guess i just find the idea one of those amusing underdeveloped things in the setting. it's interesting that there's always a big deal made about getting cyberware through security but little said about mages and other awakened threats. however, there's no question a mage of any potence is a serious security difficulty for air travel.

1) there's no particular reason that blowing up a flight midair need be suicidal for the mage. between air spirits, oxygenate, levitate, and other spells, there's a good chance a mage could fatally cripple an airplane by blowing a hole in the fuselage and then float gently to the ground to watch the plane explode in the arms of his air spirit buddy.

2) even an alchemist is a scary proposition for air travel. is he just taking an unusually long shit, or is he whittling a bomb from a bar of soap?

now, ideally, if you're a mage working for renraku and flying renraku air, this isn't a problem. but for public air transport, what do they do? assensing? must be fun to be the TSA astral perception guy. magical profiling? "grab pointy-ears from line b for enhanced interrogation; that necklace makes me nervous." do mages have to wear those magecuff bondage hoods for the whole flight? air marshal adepts and sams ready to shoot and punch astral nasties?

the same problems apply to a lesser extent on mag-lev trains and other forms of mass transport. i can't imagine a big hole in the hull of a train going 300 kph a few inches off the ground is a good thing. dismount might be more challenging.

[Umidori]

At the same time, dragons could swoop in from overhead at any moment and tear any plane, train, or other form of mass transport to shreds.

I think at some point it becomes prohibitively expensive to try to maintain full security against magical threats, especially when only 1% of the global population is awakened and any drekhead with a SAM or an assault cannon can down a low flying plane.

~Umi

[Isath]

Also, magical terrorism is somewhat covert... magical threats i.e. insect and toxic shamans. Also, the recent storyline features acts of terrorism by dragons. ...and so on. Magic could sort of destroy the world and so could nukes, disease and so on... I guess Shadowrun is over. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[quentra]

Damn those pesky Shadowrunners always somehow running into these possibly extinction-level threats...

[Slide]

How do we deal with magical terrorist? Offer them more money, or using a sniper riffle. The riffle is cheaper.

[Fiddler]

I would have gotten away with it to if it weren't for those meddling ki.. I mean runners.

[Ellzii]

Why be on the plane at all? Unless they have drastically drastically changed the rules concerning ritual magic, find some poor shlub who is taking the appropriate flight, get a lock of hair and drop a big AE spell with nasty fire effects. The presurized cabin and enclosed space will do nice wonders for the force of the spell. It's basically like setting off a grenade in the thing. All the damage none of the fuss, and you can be miles away having a nice soykaf while the Coast Guard is seeing if they can find pieces of the plane. Who cares about what security is doing at the airport. The airport was not the target. The "Bomb" walked right past without a glance. Also since there is no connection other than the flight itself between the actual target and the poor shlub who just got burned to a crisp most law enforcement types will be looking in the wrong direction for a connection to the poor shlub.

-LZ

When trying to think outside the box, first remove the box from the equation so you can start blank.

[Umidori]

I think the major problem with blowing up planes with Magic is that it's gonna end up producing a lot of bad mojo.

When two hundred people die in a fiery wreck, that produces tangible effects on the manasphere and leaves behind a lot of residual nastiness. Magical forensics will pick up on that stuff, and they will trace it back to you. You'd better be impossible to find when they do.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think the major problem with blowing up planes with Magic is that it's gonna end up producing a lot of bad mojo.

When two hundred people die in a fiery wreck, that produces tangible effects on the manasphere and leaves behind a lot of residual nastiness. Magical forensics will pick up on that stuff, and they will trace it back to you. You'd better be impossible to find when they do.

~Umi

Kind of hard to even find "Ground Zero" it if the Event happens at 35,000 Feet. And if the Caster has ways to keep the Signature to a minimum, by the time people find out what happened, the Signature is long gone.

[shinryu]

Why be on the plane at all? Unless they have drastically drastically changed the rules concerning ritual magic, find some poor shlub who is taking the appropriate flight, get a lock of hair and drop a big AE spell with nasty fire effects. The presurized cabin and enclosed space will do nice wonders for the force of the spell. It's basically like setting off a grenade in the thing. All the damage none of the fuss, and you can be miles away having a nice soykaf while the Coast Guard is seeing if they can find pieces of the plane. Who cares about what security is doing at the airport. The airport was not the target. The "Bomb" walked right past without a glance. Also since there is no connection other than the flight itself between the actual target and the poor shlub who just got burned to a crisp most law enforcement types will be looking in the wrong direction for a connection to the poor shlub.

-LZ

When trying to think outside the box, first remove the box from the equation so you can start blank.

that is hilariously good, yeah. the only problem i can see is timing; easily takes hours to actually cast the ritual, so if something goes wrong you might end up blowing up the guy in the parking lot. also, i'm not sure as of recent editions how hard it is for people to notice the ritual effect, or if other magical personnel can notice it coalescing too.

[ShadowDragon8685]

that is hilariously good, yeah. the only problem i can see is timing; easily takes hours to actually cast the ritual, so if something goes wrong you might end up blowing up the guy in the parking lot. also, i'm not sure as of recent editions how hard it is for people to notice the ritual effect, or if other magical personnel can notice it coalescing too.

Blowing up the guy in the parking lot, while not quite as effective as blowing the plane out of the sky, would still do fairly well as a terrorist attack.

Or you can bypass the guy, pay some 'runners to get you a piece of the plane itself and use that as a ritual link to the plane. Nail it with a ritualized Wreck spell, and for all the world it'll look like shoddy maintenance made the damn thing fall apart in the sky.

[Umidori]

Kind of hard to even find "Ground Zero" it if the Event happens at 35,000 Feet. And if the Caster has ways to keep the Signature to a minimum, by the time people find out what happened, the Signature is long gone.

It wouldn't be that hard to find. You'd have a huge a streak of airspace tainted to a Negative Background count, much akin to places like the Shatter Graves and whatnot. Corpsec mages could easily find it via Astral Projection and Spirit Services, astralling "flying" to the plane's last known location in minutes.

I imagine that'd actually be standard procedure when an aircraft mysteriously explodes in midair instead of crashing normally via mechanical failure. You'd send someone astrally to the plane's last known location to verify if the cause of the accident was magical or mundane. If the investigating mage or spirits see a big ol' ritual magic signature in the vicinity, hey presto!

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It wouldn't be that hard to find. You'd have a huge a streak of airspace tainted to a Negative Background count, much akin to places like the Shatter Graves and whatnot. Corpsec mages could easily find it via Astral Projection and Spirit Services, astralling "flying" to the plane's last known location in minutes.

I imagine that'd actually be standard procedure when an aircraft mysteriously explodes in midair instead of crashing normally via mechanical failure. You'd send someone astrally to the plane's last known location to verify if the cause of the accident was magical or mundane. If the investigating mage or spirits see a big ol' ritual magic signature in the vicinity, hey presto!

~Umi

That signature lasts for MAYBE a few hours. MAYBE! If it was my Mystic Adept, A Force 6 Spell would not even leave a Signature. *shrug*
As for finding that site in Astral Space, I think you vastly overestimate the accuracy of your search endeavors. Even a Spirit with the Search Power would be on the order of Hours, at best. If you assume that you will start from the Site of the explosion, how do you presume to get there in less than hours? Astral Projection will not help you, as you cannot get GPS coordinates for that. *shrug*

And why would you immediately assume magical issues when Planes mysteriously explode. I mean really, you have heard of terrorism, right? You know, Mad Bomber Syndrome is going to be VASTLY more common than a magical source.

[Umidori]

A Force 6 Spell would also not even dent a commercial aircraft.

As for finding that site in Astral Space, you don't have to find it! You already know where the plane went down! Radio communications? GPS? Flight plans? All that good stuff? When a jetliner drops off the radar, you know exactly where. Consequently, the astral seeker doesn't have to search - they just "fly" to the last known position, then look around for signatures there.

As for assuming magical issues when a plane mysteriously explodes for no reason, you really only have two options: bombs, or magic. You send an astral searcher as a "first responder" to determine which it was. Even if it was a mundane attack, you still learn valuable information.

~Umi

[ShadowDragon8685]

As for finding that site in Astral Space, you don't have to find it! You already know where the plane went down! Radio communications? GPS? Flight plans? All that good stuff? When a jetliner drops off the radar, you know exactly where. Consequently, the astral seeker doesn't have to search - they just "fly" to the last known position, then look around for signatures there.

So, who exactly has invented Astral GPS units, and why aren't they making a killing by selling, say, Astral Bullets that target spirits on the astral plane?

[Umidori]

I swear, it's like you're purposefully being obtuse. You use the mundane GPS to determine where you're going before you go there.

~Umi

[ShadowDragon8685]

I swear, it's like you're purposefully being obtuse. You use the mundane GPS to determine where you're going before you go there.

Uh-huh. Right.

And having determined that the plane's last transmission came from 43 degrees, 9 hours,8 minutes, 79 seconds north by 116 degrees, five hours, 58 minutes, 81 seconds west @ 10,000 feet up, how the flying pickadilly are you going to find that location in the astral, where you have no reference for your current GPS coordinates?!

[Umidori]

The same way an astrally projecting magician successfully flies from New York to Los Angeles, using basic navigation skills? People are able to find their way across the astral world all the time with a little effort, and spirits who actually live in the astral do it with almost no effort at all.

But for the sake of argument, let's take this to the extreme. Let's say an MCT plane goes down over the middle of the Pacific Ocean. "Wut do?"

In twenty minutes, one of MCT's magical forensics teams (who are always on call) is ready to go. They're given their briefing and step into their Safe Room, where their meat bodies will be kept safe. A direct line route has been calculated ahead of time, allowing the projecting mages to follow a single straight line at 6,000 km/hr. All they have to do is start out facing the proper direction.

The Safe Room is adjacent to the Orientation Room. In this second room, the computer calculated trajectory is projected onto the single, cylindrical wall. A technician - or even a robot if you want perfect accuracy - enters the room and paints a line on the wall, on top of the computer projection, using Astral Pigments. The exact center of the circular floor is also painted. The projecting mages pass through the wall from the Safe Room into the Orientation Room. There, they "stand" directly above the astrally glowing center of the room, and they turn to directly face the astrally glowing line on the wall. They are now properly oriented.

With their "high speed" astral movement rate already known in advance, the amount of time the mages need to travel has already been calculated. Flying in a "straight line", the team will need to cover 7,142 miles, taking them 114 minutes and 56 seconds. They can be remotely alerted to the exact passage of time through various different means, and when the appropriate time has elapsed, they are at their target position, at which point they sweep the area for any astral signatures, background count, and other features of the manascape.

There are other ways of making this work, and surely several far more elegant ones than the quick example I just whipped up. Suffice it to say, it's not impossible, even if it would require training, pre-planning, or even Spirit assistance.

~Umi

[ShadowDragon8685]

Umi, it's one thing to find a city, another thing entirely to find an arbitrary point in astral space when you're going by coordinates and searching in three dimensions.

[shinryu]

Umi, it's one thing to find a city, another thing entirely to find an arbitrary point in astral space when you're going by coordinates and searching in three dimensions.

best solution might be to have a physical team throw up a cloud of FAB in the general region; how well this would work in the jetstream is an open question.

regarding the negative background count problem, wouldn't that be more a function of the impact site than the detonation area? also, if it's the spatial coordinates that are tainted with the astral signature and not the objects themselves, then finding that exact point where the spell went off could be extremely difficult.

i also disagree that a force 6 spell couldn't screw up a plane from the inside. a force 6 fireball could do up to 12P fire damage with an AP of -6. between that and secondary effects it could be a very bad deal and probably enough to blow through the barrier rating of most airplane materials. presuming a structure of 8-10 and armor of 10-16, it's certainly not implausible. plus fire in pressurized environment bad times for all.

[ShadowDragon8685]

best solution might be to have a physical team throw up a cloud of FAB in the general region; how well this would work in the jetstream is an open question.

It wouldn't work terribly well at all, and it's all dependant on getting both the physical team and the magical team (in astral space) to the blast site before the astral traces are scrubbed.

[Umidori]

Umi, it's one thing to find a city, another thing entirely to find an arbitrary point in astral space when you're going by coordinates and searching in three dimensions.

Except I provided a pretty flawless way of doing exactly that. Travel in a straight line from Point A at X Speed for Y Time and arrive at Point B. Or did you only read the first two sentences of my post before responding? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

[Lurker37]

Actually, I think it would be more like 'Here's the flight path of the plane. Follow it until you see the huge scar in the astral up in the middle of an otherwise pretty clear sky - that will be where hundreds of people died screaming all at the same time. You'll see it from miles away. Once you're there, check to see if there's a residual magical signature, and if there is, memorise it.'

The point of the explosion should stick out like the proverbial. Just sayin'.

[toturi]

Except I provided a pretty flawless way of doing exactly that. Travel in a straight line from Point A at X Speed for Y Time and arrive at Point B. Or did you only read the first two sentences of my post before responding? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

OK, how do you know that you are travelling at X speed in the astral? Or for time Y? Sure, you can mentally count the seconds, sure, but it won't be anywhere accurate pass 60 seconds. And I don't know how to estimate speed physically (Ok, sure, there's slow, fast and faster but accurate enough for navigation?) much less how someone would do so astrally? OK, some guy can have Navigation (Astral) 6, but really how many mages are going to have that skill set?

Actually, I think it would be more like 'Here's the flight path of the plane. Follow it until you see the huge scar in the astral up in the middle of an otherwise pretty clear sky - that will be where hundreds of people died screaming all at the same time. You'll see it from miles away. Once you're there, check to see if there's a residual magical signature, and if there is, memorise it.'

The point of the explosion should stick out like the proverbial. Just sayin'.

Locating the point of the explosion would be like searching for the proverbial. Locating the huge astral scar would be no problem though.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Except I provided a pretty flawless way of doing exactly that. Travel in a straight line from Point A at X Speed for Y Time and arrive at Point B. Or did you only read the first two sentences of my post before responding? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You provided a pretty flawless way to get completely lost. If someone tried this and didn't have a lot of Navigation (Astral), he'd be lucky to make it back to his own body before he faded away, let alone find the explosion site, which is frankly going to be rather small compared to all of astral space.

Exactly how perfectly, flawlessly, razor straight can a magician follow that line, huh? Because if he's seven thousand kilometers away and he's so much as one frigging degree off, he will wind up one hundred and twenty two kilometers from where he wants to be.

And that's straight-up euclidian, assuming perfectly straight travel along that almost-perfect heading. You try heading in one direction for a full hour, mapping a perfectly straight line that follows the curvature of the earth over a significant portion of its length. Then you have to factor in the fact that our buddy here isn't looking for an arbitrary point on the map and arriving anywhere over it will accomplish his goal, he's searching for an an arbitrary point in space, so not only does he have to get his heading exactly right, he also has to arrive at the right elevation, as airliners tend to fly between 9 and 12 Km off the ground.. In short, he's boned - without Navigation (Astral), the magician is going to be hopelessly lost, and even then such a trip is going to be dicy at best.

Your "clever trick" only works in white room conditions with everything declared working exactly as it is said to work. It will not work practically.

Also, good luck sensing the aura of the spell amidst the Background count of the disaster and any masking that the magicians who did the deed threw up in your face.