Need a tip, I don't think my players are on here, but if they are please stay Options

[FuelDrop]

Ok, those of you who're reading my 'Diary' thread are probably pretty much up to date already. I just need a tip from a more experienced GM about something.

The Vory have astral overwatch in the form of a force 6 spirit, which is going to manifest at the very beginning of the next session (should make things interesting...)
Now I'm not sure what kind of spirit to use. We're at the waterfront, so a water spirit wouldn't be completely out of the question. Earth spirits are tough, and should be able to keep Shadow tied up for a few rounds (his adrenaline pump runs out in 9 rounds), a beast spirit in the shape of a giant bear would thematically fit the Vorys' Russian origins and be pretty badass, and a fire spirit would be impressively devastating and is the traditional combat spirit for a hermetic mage.

What would you guys recommend?

[Tanegar]

Why did the Vory summon the spirit? Is it to tangle with potential intruders, or just to keep an eye on the astral? What tradition does the summoner belong to? Black Magic is the obvious choice for a Mafiya wizard, but there are other options. The magician's tradition will both constrain and inform his choice of spirit.

[FuelDrop]

Spirit is on a remote service to protect the compound's astral space AND intervene in the material if the Vory ground forces are outmatched. Tradition hasn't been decided yet, but isn't tainted, blood or insect based.

[Tanegar]

Pick the tradition first. The choice of spirit follows from that. If the spirit is on remote service, where is the summoner? Will the spirit call him in the event it decides to intervene? What criteria will it use to decide that?

[GloriousRuse]

They have an F6 just patrolling away? Eeesh.

Since it seems like your world is meant to be a "player appropriate challenge" world (otherwise your F6 summoning mage is about 1/40000 people just to exist...let alone take up with the vory when his services will earn him a high lifestyle wherever he chooses or is extracted to, let alone waste his bound spirits guarding warehouses) than a "canonically real world", you don't need to muck too much with staying in character.

There's plenty of reason's for a particular mage to have a tradition or summon a certain spirirt in that kind of world, so pick the spirit to provide a combat challenge then work backwards. You can always make it seem bad-ass Russian with thematic accents from Slavic folklore OR the good ol USSR.

[FuelDrop]

They have an F6 just patrolling away? Eeesh.

Since it seems like your world is meant to be a "player appropriate challenge" world (otherwise your F6 summoning mage is about 1/40000 people just to exist...let alone take up with the vory when his services will earn him a high lifestyle wherever he chooses or is extracted to, let alone waste his bound spirits guarding warehouses) than a "canonically real world", you don't need to muck too much with staying in character.

There's plenty of reason's for a particular mage to have a tradition or summon a certain spirirt in that kind of world, so pick the spirit to provide a combat challenge then work backwards. You can always make it seem bad-ass Russian with thematic accents from Slavic folklore OR the good ol USSR.

Minimum magic to summon a force 6 spirit is 3. As it's a remote service the caster could literally be anywhere in the world. I can't really say that it's that impossible (If the summoner was also there, I'd have to agree with you).

I think I'm going to go with a bear shaman/beast spirit combo. Thanks for the feedback guys.

[toturi]

Minimum magic to summon a force 6 spirit is 3. As it's a remote service the caster could literally be anywhere in the world. I can't really say that it's that impossible (If the summoner was also there, I'd have to agree with you).

I think I'm going to go with a bear shaman/beast spirit combo. Thanks for the feedback guys.

So the spirit did not use its Edge to resist the summoning?

[FuelDrop]

So the spirit did not use its Edge to resist the summoning?

5th edition, not getting drawn into that debate.

[RHat]

So the spirit did not use its Edge to resist the summoning?

This one falls under "the GM has decided it happened" - no dice are involved. And if it did, it would get about 9 dice to resist which is reasonably easy to beat, especially if not respecting chargen skill caps (Magic 3, Power/Spirit Focus 3, Summoning 8(+2 Spirit Type) offers 16 dice, which will probably win out).

[GloriousRuse]

Minimum magic to summon a force 6 spirit is 3. As it's a remote service the caster could literally be anywhere in the world. I can't really say that it's that impossible (If the summoner was also there, I'd have to agree with you).

So, lets say he's Magic 3, summoning 4 with a soak pool of 8. A Competent summoner who is within on standard deviation of magical ability for the awakened.

An F6 is an overcast. So, every time he pulls this trick, its P damage, not S.

If the spirit is just being summoned, and does not edge, the summoner can expect to fail his summon about 40% of the time, and will end up with 2P on average, which will take a day of rest to heal off. Plus it probably hurts like hell.

If you go with conventional wisdom that over-magic spirits will edge (a point of debate), then the summoner will fail 2/3 of the time, and end up with 7-8P of damage to boot. On a bad day, he's heading in to overflow. Helluva gamble right there just to patrol the docks until dawn. (and if you go with the old Sr4 "serious injury" optional rules for 7+ damage, we're talking about this guy crippling himself in as well)

And if he tries to bind it..well...he's probably just dead.

[ShadowDragon8685]

From what I know of the Vory, mind you it's from 4e sourcebooks but it's only been a few years...

The Vory are not big on the magic. They don't like mages, they don't trust them. They use them - of course they do, it's the Sixth World, if you ignore (or shun) Magic, you get your ass brutally gulag-raped by those who do not.

Mages who work for the Vory are either (a) contractors for the short-term, 'Runners in other words, who are kept on a strictly need-to-know basis, or (b) not treated well, not assisted in their thaumaturgical growth, and usually killed when they start to get so powerful the higher-ups fear they can may a magical bid for power.

If this is a patrolling spirit, I wouldn't say it's more than Magic 5 at best, probably 4 or even three. The Vory aren't terribly big on hoodoo mysticism, ooga booga gods and spirits and stuff. You're probably looking at a Hermetic, Black Mage, or Chaos Mage, possibly a Hedge Wizard or a Christian Theurge (Russian Orthodox, of course.) They aren't going to want someone who thinks like there's some other power center in his life (like Fox, or Ghost, or whatever,) besides the Vory (though again, they'd permit a Christian Theurge of the Russian Orthodoxy because they're all Russia, Fuck Yeah.)

What they're more likely to use is drones. I'd suggest having a hostile rotodrone show up, or maybe a hostile rotodrone and a lower-Force spirit.

Anyway, here's what I'd suggest for the spirits from the traditions I listed, assuming it's a Vory spellslinger and not a contractor:
Black Mage: Spirit of Fire in the form of some kind of traditional-looking fire demon - think the Balrog writ small.
Chaos Mage: Spirit of Fire in the form of an animate shower of burning symbols - think The Matrix rain, with Russian symbolism (especially the hammer and sickle, of course,) and various other forms of hermetic symbolism mixed in with the more technological-looking symbols.
Christian Theurge: Spirit of Fire in the form of an angel, clad in medieval armor and garbed in the raiments of an Eastern Orthodox Patriarch, with sword in one hand and staff in the other, flying on wings of fire.
Hedge Witch/Traditional Folk Magician: With a distinctly Russian flavor, the Hedge Witch is basically the antithesis of a Christian Theurge, twisting the trappings of the christian theurgy to indicate that they have turned their back on God and truck with devils and demons. This witch would summon a Spirit of Earth in the form of a corpse of deathly pallor, one who died a bad death and could not be accepted yet was thrust into the ground anyway - a corpse coated in mud with rocks and sticks sticking to it.
Hermetic Magician: Spirit of Fire, of course. How many iterations of Fire as the spirit of combat can you go through? Guh.


But seriously, don't throw a Force 6 spirit at them, throw a Force 3-4 and a rotordrone at them, because the Vory are more into military hardware than mojo.

[FuelDrop]

From what I know of the Vory, mind you it's from 4e sourcebooks but it's only been a few years...

The Vory are not big on the magic. They don't like mages, they don't trust them. They use them - of course they do, it's the Sixth World, if you ignore (or shun) Magic, you get your ass brutally gulag-raped by those who do not.

Mages who work for the Vory are either (a) contractors for the short-term, 'Runners in other words, who are kept on a strictly need-to-know basis, or (b) not treated well, not assisted in their thaumaturgical growth, and usually killed when they start to get so powerful the higher-ups fear they can may a magical bid for power.

If this is a patrolling spirit, I wouldn't say it's more than Magic 5 at best, probably 4 or even three. The Vory aren't terribly big on hoodoo mysticism, ooga booga gods and spirits and stuff. You're probably looking at a Hermetic, Black Mage, or Chaos Mage, possibly a Hedge Wizard or a Christian Theurge (Russian Orthodox, of course.) They aren't going to want someone who thinks like there's some other power center in his life (like Fox, or Ghost, or whatever,) besides the Vory (though again, they'd permit a Christian Theurge of the Russian Orthodoxy because they're all Russia, Fuck Yeah.)

What they're more likely to use is drones. I'd suggest having a hostile rotodrone show up, or maybe a hostile rotodrone and a lower-Force spirit.

Anyway, here's what I'd suggest for the spirits from the traditions I listed, assuming it's a Vory spellslinger and not a contractor:
Black Mage: Spirit of Fire in the form of some kind of traditional-looking fire demon - think the Balrog writ small.
Chaos Mage: Spirit of Fire in the form of an animate shower of burning symbols - think The Matrix rain, with Russian symbolism (especially the hammer and sickle, of course,) and various other forms of hermetic symbolism mixed in with the more technological-looking symbols.
Christian Theurge: Spirit of Fire in the form of an angel, clad in medieval armor and garbed in the raiments of an Eastern Orthodox Patriarch, with sword in one hand and staff in the other, flying on wings of fire.
Hedge Witch/Traditional Folk Magician: With a distinctly Russian flavor, the Hedge Witch is basically the antithesis of a Christian Theurge, twisting the trappings of the christian theurgy to indicate that they have turned their back on God and truck with devils and demons. This witch would summon a Spirit of Earth in the form of a corpse of deathly pallor, one who died a bad death and could not be accepted yet was thrust into the ground anyway - a corpse coated in mud with rocks and sticks sticking to it.
Hermetic Magician: Spirit of Fire, of course. How many iterations of Fire as the spirit of combat can you go through? Guh.


But seriously, don't throw a Force 6 spirit at them, throw a Force 3-4 and a rotordrone at them, because the Vory are more into military hardware than mojo.

Fair enough. Rating 4 works fine, and I like several of your suggestions. Hedge Witch works great, and should scare the bejesus out of my players. I already have several drones flanking and ready to open fire, adding another one might be overkill.

[shinryu]

Fair enough. Rating 4 works fine, and I like several of your suggestions. Hedge Witch works great, and should scare the bejesus out of my players. I already have several drones flanking and ready to open fire, adding another one might be overkill.

force 12, baba yaga, no survivors, go. alternatively, a force 12 spectral stalin could dance them to death as he did to the martians who threatened the motherland. you want to kill your players with good old uncle joe, right?

why force 12? because you can do it now that mages have been totally balanced with other classes and are no longer weaklings that no one in their right mind would play. spectral tanks were the perfect solution to that totally-extant problem that so many people complained about in earlier editions. those pussy spirits in 4th ed just don't measure up.

i kid. second that a force 4 is probably more appropriate for the situation as given. i wouldn't throw a force 6 and drones simultaneously at a group. unless i was really aiming to murder every character in the group.

[FuelDrop]

force 12, baba yaga, no survivors, go. alternatively, spectral stalin could dance them to death.

why force 12? because you can!

I don't want to kill them, I want to challenge them. Then, when they feel badass I can have the plebs mow them down with SMG fire.

I always prefer to make the less powerful beings the bigger threat in the encounter. After all, a force 6 spirit vs strength 8 and a combat axe isn't going to last long, particularly if you throw in a ninja adept to help bring the pain. It will keep them in place long enough for some long bursts, though.

[ShadowDragon8685]

From the Wikipedia article on hedge witchcraft,

To perform "black magic" one had to forsake everything holy which involves inverting Christian symbolism used in "white magic". To do this one could turn his or her icons to face the wall, pray facing west instead of east, refuse to wash before and after sleeping, spit out the gifts of Communion or hold conversations with demons. Sorcerers primarily use black magic to summon devils. The goals of summoning devils include attaining wealth, fame, approval of superiors, sex, or harming another person. Those that rejected Christianity and sought the Devil felt that the Devil was as strong as God and impious spells were more powerful than prayer.

Hedge Wizards as of Street Magic summon:
Combat: Earth
Detection: Water
Health: Plant
Illusion: Air
Manipulation: Task
They use Willpower + INT as their Drain stats (dunno how to map that to SR5,) and, importantly, they are a possession tradition.

You could ignore that for these purposes, of course, but if you don't, well... That Corpse that died a "bad death" might have been a person who died a "bad death" specifically for the purpose of being bound to a Hedge Wizard's will. I'd also think the Vory would like possession tradition magicians, since getting appropriate vessels might be something the magician might need to rely on the Vory as a whole for.

Also, I can't help but imagine some Vory hedge witch summoning/binding task spirits as courtesans, for himself and/or the higher-ups, heh.

[shinryu]

I don't want to kill them, I want to challenge them. Then, when they feel badass I can have the plebs mow them down with SMG fire.

I always prefer to make the less powerful beings the bigger threat in the encounter. After all, a force 6 spirit vs strength 8 and a combat axe isn't going to last long, particularly if you throw in a ninja adept to help bring the pain. It will keep them in place long enough for some long bursts, though.

sorry, meant that as a joke given the new summoning rules, mainly. a force 6 actually seems like overkill to some extent. keep in mind even versus a 12P AP -4 combat axe it's still getting 8 armor and 6 body plus four automatic hits, so there's a good chance it can survive and retaliate with 12P AP -6 attacks of its own. an adept with killing hands is the far bigger threat and might justify a force 6 opponent.

[thorya]

It's a bit odd that two people that have recently started threads about how easy it is to to summon spirits and how overpowered they are, have argued that this is an unlikely scenario. Players can be throwing around force 8+ spirits regularly and security doesn't have anyway of dealing with them. But now that a GM wants to use a Force 6 spirit, it simply can't happen?

A force 6 spirit supporting a team of 10 orc grunts, 5 dogs, 4 drones, and a troll doesn't seem unreasonable. And they did decide to charge.

I personally vote the beast spirit, that looks like a bear.

[ShadowDragon8685]

It's a bit odd that two people that have recently started threads about how easy it is to to summon spirits and how overpowered they are, have argued that this is an unlikely scenario. Players can be throwing around force 8+ spirits regularly and security doesn't have anyway of dealing with them. But now that a GM wants to use a Force 6 spirit, it simply can't happen?

If the players in question can throw around Force 8+ spirits, they have means of dealing with a Force 6 spirit. If they can't, they're screwed.

If the players are screwed, that's it, game over, roll a new character.

And you bet your ass if the GM throws a TPK because of a spirit and none of the players could kill it, the next group he GMs for will be straight-up MagicRun, with the only "Tech" character being a Technomancer.

A force 6 spirit supporting a team of 10 orc grunts, 5 dogs, 4 drones, and a troll doesn't seem unreasonable. And they did decide to charge.

Sounds like a fucking TPK to me.

[Voran]

Spirit of Man seems appropriate. And it looks like a KGB officer.

[Erik Baird]

So... something like this this?

[thorya]

Sounds like a fucking TPK to me.

Yeah, it does. It should probably be a TPK whether or not the spirits there with what's been described, but they were aware of the non-magical opposition and still chose to charge into a room of people with guns trying to shoot them with melee weapons, without magical support. If they've got a chance to survive against everything else, the spirit won't actually make much difference.

[Voran]

So... something like this this?

Use the one of him riding a bear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[FuelDrop]

Honestly, these two are so heavily built for combat that they haven't even been touched yet. One is throwing more dice to dodge than the enemy have attack dice (though bursts are hurting that) and more importantly has a horse-shoe up his ass when it comes to rolling (Legit. he does all his rolls in the open, with clean dice. he's just uncanny). The other guy has full SWAT armour and some other things that give him a serious soak pool, along with dodge 12-13.

I may be over-compensating, but the force 6 spirit was in the plan from the get go (I had been expecting our mystic adept along too, which would have evened the score a bit more.)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Honestly, these two are so heavily built for combat that they haven't even been touched yet. One is throwing more dice to dodge than the enemy have attack dice (though bursts are hurting that) and more importantly has a horse-shoe up his ass when it comes to rolling (Legit. he does all his rolls in the open, with clean dice. he's just uncanny). The other guy has full SWAT armour and some other things that give him a serious soak pool, along with dodge 12-13.

I may be over-compensating, but the force 6 spirit was in the plan from the get go (I had been expecting our mystic adept along too, which would have evened the score a bit more.)

An F6 Spirit without the MysticAd to Killing Hands it is just going to smack your players of sour grapes. Downgrade the spirit to something the sammy can actually kill with his axe, then, since they like being combat monsters, throw some drones at them.

And of course, if they're good, they'll "salvage" the enemy drones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[RHat]

An F6 Spirit without the MysticAd to Killing Hands it is just going to smack your players of sour grapes. Downgrade the spirit to something the sammy can actually kill with his axe, then, since they like being combat monsters, throw some drones at them.

If he's got good dice pools, a street sam can absolutely take out a Force 6 spirit. The right protection on his armour wouldn't hurt, either.