SR5, TMs are now matrix supporter role. Options

[Raiden]

so looking at the TM stuff it feels like TMs are not only matrix mages but, due to poor rules, are now inferior to deckers in every aspect but staying hidden. Also they have lots of CFs that seem to be decker supportive, a few examples.

Cleaner- remove OS score (no useful to said TM usually),
matrix attribute infusion- does not raise dice pools, only limits, with deckers having inherently more dice than TMs this works well has a support to a decker,


Now not to say they are not "fun" to play, with all the nifty CFs they have (pupeteer, resonance spike, and tattletale) It seems they work best as a support to the decker than as the hacker themselves. that being said I have had very little in game exp. with this. (we have a TM and a Decker in the group, the decker is about 10 dice ahead of the TM in almost everything, not counting programs)

[Abschalten]

Now not to say they are not "fun" to play...

Why not? It's what I think. The opinions I've gotten of technomancers in SR5 from friends of mine range from "waste of pages" to "superfluous." Their complex forms have Fading values that are way too high, they've had nerfs to crucial mechanics, and anything a technomancer has access to, a decker has these things, but better, and often for a far less investment cost. They're "fun" in the same way playing a character who sucks at their profession is.

[Raiden]

I will argue that while not as proficient as a decker TMs have nifty things that I feel add a bit of fun to them. (not to say it makes up for the nerf sledgehammer they got, but still) enough to play one if you want, unless you only care about being the best. also, TMs have the only attack action that can be done without alerting the receiver.

[Jaid]

ummm... how does your decker have 10 more dice across the board than the technomancer? dice pools should be *fairly* close, unless the decker invested in attributes and skills while the technomancer completely dumped both...

(note: not arguing that technomancers didn't get nerfed, or that their best role fresh out of chargen is as a secondary/support hacker... unless you potentially count rigging... but i am surprised that the dicepools are so much bigger for your decker)

[Raiden]

sorry, its an adept decker, and not counting codeslinger and the like its more along the lines of 6 dice.

[Jaid]

ah okay, adept decker makes a lot more sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

still a bit higher than i would have expected (adept skills should basically be limited to 3-point increases at chargen, unless you're assuming the really screwy wording they've got is accurate), but much more reasonable =S

[Raiden]

said hacker has cerebral boosters some how lol.

[shonen_mask]

So with the new rules do you think Adept hackers closed the gap between themselves and full deckers/hackers?

I ask since I agree that Technomancers are peged to played a bit more as their own role like the topic suggests...
Maybe closing the gap between themselves and a adept hacker/decker since SR4(not great at anything but looks fun to play).

[SpellBinder]

Interesting... Some stuff I was coming to on my own about technomancers being better as support to deckers & riggers than going on their own as premier hackers because of their innate ability to work the Matrix with just their brain.

Interesting that in this edition of Deckerrun that the archetype that would likely be the best hacker is delegated to being a 4th rate character type.

[Raiden]

So with the new rules do you think Adept hackers closed the gap between themselves and full deckers/hackers?

not quite sure what you are asking.

[Redjack]

Several technomancers sat at various tables I ran at Gen Con. The only time they were really effective were as back up to the hacker.

[Jaid]

i'm pretty sure that adept deckers are the best presently available in SR4 (well, possible argument for mystic adepts, but i suspect that won't really take off until we get a chargen method other than priority) actually.

bearing in mind that the adept powers are improving their skills, and need not directly affect things on the matrix, provided we're talking about the ones that just give you extra skill.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Several technomancers sat at various tables I ran at Gen Con. The only time they were really effective were as back up to the hacker.

Which is really sad, actually. A Technomancer should be able to stand on his own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[BlackJaw]

Several technomancers sat at various tables I ran at Gen Con. The only time they were really effective were as back up to the hacker.

I haven't run a Technomancer, but I just stated one up in a spread sheet to see what I could do with it, and I think it's fairly effective compared to a Decker. Priority A Attributes, B Technomancer, C Skills, D Race (Human), E Resources.

Looking at the Complex Forms, I focused on Puppeteer, which when cast on a device can be used to make it take matrix actions, like Invite Marks. Complex Forms don't generate Overwatch Scores, so this allows a "GOD Free" hacking alternative vs devices, but not hosts, personas, or files. With a Specialization in Puppeteer on a rank 6 software skill, along with Resonance 6, the character throws 14 Dice. Invite Mark is a simple action, so the Technomancer only needs 2 net hits vs the target's Firewall + Willpower to have it invite him to place 3 marks. Also, as a Resonance action, threading the Puppeteer complex form isn't something that a matrix perception check can detect as your persona's most recent matrix action, nor does it take the -2 penalty for running silent. This makes ICE less likely to detect your intrusions.

Similarly the Editor complex form allows the alteration, including copying and therefore changing of ownership, of a file without generating OS or worrying about Marks. I'm not sure how this complex form interacts with Protection and Data Bombs, though I think it's supposed to ignore them as it's not "Edit" which is what DataBombs and Protection are associated with. That would mean a copied file is free of the databomb (it remains "attached" to the original file) and protection shouldn't be a problem anymore because you own the new file.

Another complex form, Static Veil, prevents OS from going up due to time. A Decker, once they start hacking, has a limited amount of time before a GOD shows up and dumps them, but a Technomancer with Focused Concentration Rank 2 can performing hacking actions off and on for as long as they like and stay on the same grid. Better yet, when combined with the Ereaser complex form, they can pause after hacking to lower their OS score a bit, allowing them to take their time on hacking runs without worrying about GOD... ICE in a host could still be a threat of course.

Lastly, the Technomancer I made had a 6 in Charisma (Attack 6) with a 5 in Willpower (Firewall), 5 in Logic (Data Processing), 5 in Intuition (Sleaze) and 6 Resonance (Device Rating). That's fairly comparable to a Decker that spends a lot of funds on a Deck. Similar would be A Renraku Tsurugi ($214,125, 9R) at 6/5/5/4, with a device rating of only 3, although that deck can be pushed up to 7/6/6/3 when fully loaded and properly configured with software for a task.

The 6 Attack, along with Logic 5, Codesligner (Data Spike), Cybercombat 6, and a Specialization in Devices, makes the character extremely effective at burning out gear, and not bad at Brute Force Attacks. In VR that's 17 dice, limit 6, for burning out a device, with a damage of 6 + net hits. If he had a chance to Thread up Puppeteer and gain 3 marks on the device first, he does 6 more damage (2 per mark).

Now I admit a Decker+Technomancer combo can be very impressive, as a lot of the Complex Forms can work a Decker's Persona, or better yet his deck, to make him a power house of hacking, but that's not far off a Mage with the right spell selection being able to turn an Adept with the right power selections & gear into a combat monster. Also, this build I've done doesn't make much use of Sprites. A Technomnacer that focuses on Sprites: compiling them, registering them, and then using complex forms to improve/maintain them... and letting the sprite do all the hacking work, could be very potent, and generally not gain an OS score himself.

I think the biggest problem with Technomancers right now is they have a hard time getting programs or their equivlents. Needing to submerge to get an echo to get one cyberprogram is a bit rough, especially if PCs aren't supposed to be able to start with Submersion grades. Programs like Sneak, Wrapper, Lockdown, Biofeedback, and others provide fairly important features to some styles of hacker character. More over, a Technomancer's attributes do a great job of aproximating a Deck's attributes, but decks can not only be reconfigured, but they can also run programs to boost their attributes. Technomancers have the Infusion complex form, but it targets Devices, which sadly a Technomancer and his Sprites are not.

[Raiden]

dont forget the 10 fading you are taking for using a level 6 puppeteer CF. and the edit CF is L+1 I think?
anyway, here is a decker, 6 hacking, 8 logic (cerebral boosters) specialization hacking on the fly. we are now sitting at 16 dice. lets take magic D, 2 PP= 2-3 more dice. program for +2 to this skill (exploit) we now are at what 21 dice without VR? add code slinger 23 dice w/out VR. resources A, (or B if you can make it work)skills B Attributes C magic D meta E. you still have 16-18 dice out of VR for cybercombat. at resources A you can grab a cyber arm for shooting with pistols (tasers are my fav here) and even a synaptic booster! ofc you can take res. B and skills A for more diversity in the skills area. but meh. (another thought, instead of codeslinger grab exceptional attribute for +1 across the hacking board). TMs main roll it seems is a support (meat world with diagnostics, and matrix with decker support) not to say they -cant- be the main hacker, but its harder for them.

[SpellBinder]

Editor is L+2.

And yeah, Puppeteer is likely set at L+4 just so technomancers won't be flinging it about like candy at a parade, unlike magicians and fireballs at F-1.

TM after using an L6 Puppeteer: "And... at the most inopportune time... I... shall go unconscious." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[Raiden]

*hhmmm I feel like taking a nap, PUPETEER!* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[BlackJaw]

dont forget the 10 fading you are taking for using a level 6 puppeteer CF. and the edit CF is L+1 I think?

Yah, fading can be a bitch that way, but Puppeteer probably doesn't need to be cast at full Level all the time considering you only need a 2 net hits to get a simple action. If the average device is rating 2 and the average user has willpower 3, then they only get 5 dice to resist, so your average device is only needing a Level 3 or so casting for 7 Fade. At least the technomancer is resisting with 11 dice (6 resonance + 5 willpower) and it will be Stun damage instead of Physical. Still, that's a lot of stun damage I agree, but you can use it to get 3 legal marks in a single action with no OS score, so it's no minor ability.

anyway, here is a decker, 6 hacking, 8 logic (cerebral boosters) specialization hacking on the fly. we are now sitting at 16 dice. lets take magic D, 2 PP= 2-3 more dice. program for +2 to this skill (exploit) we now are at what 21 dice without VR? add code slinger 23 dice w/out VR. resources A, (or B if you can make it work)skills B Attributes C magic D meta E. you still have 16-18 dice out of VR for cybercombat. at resources A you can grab a cyber arm for shooting with pistols (tasers are my fav here) and even a synaptic booster! ofc you can take res. B and skills A for more diversity in the skills area. but meh. (another thought, instead of codeslinger grab exceptional attribute for +1 across the hacking board). TMs main roll it seems is a support (meat world with diagnostics, and matrix with decker support) not to say they -cant- be the main hacker, but its harder for them.

Magic, Cyberware, decent (mental) Stats, high skills, an expensive deck, with cash and skills left over for an tricked out cyberarm and gun? Wow. I'm feeling a bit inspired now. Thanks for the tips on building a highly focused decker!

[Raiden]

I. I am not sure if that is genuine or sarcastic, I will go with genuine. heh. unfortunately the above would limit two attributes two 1 (without karma expenditure or cyber averages (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) :/) but other physical stats around 3ish.

[BlackJaw]

I am not sure if that is genuine or sarcastic, I will go with genuine. heh. unfortunately the above would limit two attributes two 1 (without karma expenditure or cyber averages :P :/) but other physical stats around 3ish.

Genuine. I had a 4th edition pink mowhawk type hacker character with a cyberarm for gunplay. He was an experiment in building a rediculously focused hacker character in 4th rules. This is essentially a 5th edition (adept enhanced) similar concept. Mind you, the original hashsaw was built for AR hacking with slightly enhanced reflexes. I could try to do that here, but I'd have to drop all the ware and spend a lot more power points.

Right now I've got 9 Hacking with 8 Logic + specialization. Sadly I can't fit a full cyber arm on the character without losing another power point or reducing the cerebral boosters to rating 1. I think I can probably get his hacking up some more through, but I need to head to work now.

[Sengir]

Another complex form, Static Veil, prevents OS from going up due to time. A Decker, once they start hacking, has a limited amount of time before a GOD shows up and dumps them, but a Technomancer with Focused Concentration Rank 2 can performing hacking actions off and on for as long as they like and stay on the same grid.

If you're just hacking on and off, you might as well reboot your deck/persona from time to time. On the other hand, Static Veil seems mandatory if you want to use Sprites, which generate OS just by existing...

@Redjack:

Several technomancers sat at various tables I ran at Gen Con. The only time they were really effective were as back up to the hacker.

Did the rules at least work without too many "uhm, good question" moments?

[Jaid]

@blackjaw:

puppeteer is good. so is spoofing. and actually, you probably will need force 6 (or close to it) most of the time against anything significant... if you're only up against a device rating 2 device, just wreck it with hacking and then reboot afterwards, and you never have to deal with GOD anyways. if you're not up against a device rating of 2, you need to have a high enough limit to account for the device's hits, and since nobody wants to take 8 or 9 points of fading with *no* gain just because someone managed to roll a couple of hits more than "average", you're probably looking at a pretty high rating complex form.

editor doesn't mention anything about letting you bypass copy protection or data bombs. i see no reason why it would. although at least that would help a great deal in terms of making technomancers worthwhile... complete safety from data bombs would help an awful lot, especially since they are so ridiculously devastating to technomancers.

static veil is actually not that great in many ways. your OS only increases every 15 minutes by time. given that hacking has been greatly sped up, that isn't terribly useful, except for keeping sprites around longer than ~2.5 hours.

eraser is pretty handy though, and ultimately makes static veil even more useless since you can just use it once or twice every 15 minutes.

as to those matrix attributes, they don't compare favourably to the best deck you can get in chargen, which has 4/5/6/7, can be swapped with extreme ease (no really, just buy a whole bunch of copies of the program that lets you swap everything, one for each possible configuration of programs and attributes you expect to want, and it's a simple reconfigure to get your deck to fit just about any purpose). the damaging CF is kinda garbage, apart from not generating OS; the amount of damage is merely net hits, so unless their soak pool is 3 times your attack rating, just attacking stuff with regular hacking is probably better (and in fact, considering how you can boost your deck's ability to attack via programs, it's actually even more favourable to go with a regular decker).

it's not just about dice pools (although to some extent those will likely be smaller for a technomancer). it's about versatility, and not taking huge amounts of fading damage which can take extended rest breaks to recover from, and not having to use your personal damage tracks in the matrix, and being able to use cyberware and bioware.

[BlackJaw]

If you're just hacking on and off, you might as well reboot your deck/persona from time to time.

The problem is every time you reboot your persona you lose all your marks on other icons (and vice versa). If your trying to go slow, say because you are trying to hang around and snoop on traffic, or because you need to wait for a legitimate user to pull a file out of a host archive, then the slowly gathering OS score will be trouble, especially if when the archived file gets pulled out of 2 hours later you already have a large Overwatch Score that means you can't do much without being beset by defenses.

Admittedly, Eraser can do something similar to Static Veil if you cast it at low Level a few times an hour. Also, it is useful for keeping a non-registered sprite around longer than a few hours due to it's OS.

editor doesn't mention anything about letting you bypass copy protection or data bombs. i see no reason why it would. although at least that would help a great deal in terms of making technomancers worthwhile... complete safety from data bombs would help an awful lot, especially since they are so ridiculously devastating to technomancers.

Look at Databomb and Protection (under Edit File) though: they apply under a very specific set of actions that does not include Complex Forms. Essentially I don't think Editor (complex form) is not the same thing as Editing (Matrix Action) a file, although it provides the same ends. It's not clear, but it might provides a way around the protection and bomb.

[shonen_mask]

not quite sure what you are asking.

Adept/Hackers in 4th i felt were relegated to finding a few specializations and staying just o.k.
as far as the rest of their technicial skills. But do you see a support role for adept type deckers more relevent?

The rule changes do make hacking the matrix in SR5 more acessable i guess.

[quentra]

With the monetary investment in making a half-passable decker, it's actually less. Because by the time you've invested shit into being a decent decker, you might as well stay that way.