[X] My Assistant

[Raiden]

Adept hackers in sr4 is allowed geas and or ways easily beat the mundane in any hacking area.

[shonen_mask]

With the monetary investment in making a half-passable decker, it's actually less. Because by the time you've invested shit into being a decent decker, you might as well stay that way.

True. but taking away the monetary investment at first, the game may be open for other archtypes to at least not be awful at it in an ongoing campaign.

I'm looking to play a magician/decker if the numbers are right....
The changes in the 6th world version of the matrix make me think...

EDIT:

I mean mystic adept/decker.....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Look at Databomb and Protection (under Edit File) though: they apply under a very specific set of actions that does not include Complex Forms. Essentially I don't think Editor (complex form) is not the same thing as Editing (Matrix Action) a file, although it provides the same ends. It's not clear, but it might provides a way around the protection and bomb.

That is a very large stretch... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[BlackJaw]

That is a very large stretch... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Looks like you're right:
Edit File, Page 239: "Edit File allows you to create, change, copy, delete, or protect any kind of file. "
Edit File, Page 239: "A protected file cannot be read, changed, deleted, or copied until its protection is broken."
Set Data Bomb, page 242: "The Data Bomb is triggered when someone attempts to read, edit, copy, protect, delete, or put another Data Bomb on the file without using the already-in-place Data Bomb’s passcode."
Set Data Bomb, page 242: "If the passcode is used, the Data Bomb doesn’t activate. Instead, it remains attached to the file, waiting for the next guy."
Editor, page 252: "You infuse a file with Resonance long enough to manipulate its contents. Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test against the Intuition + Data Processing of the file’s owner. You can make the same amount of changes to the file that you would be able to make with your net hits in Edit File actions."

I had hoped that "manipulate contents" was an intentional way around "edit" as a trigger/restriction for data bombs and protection. My thinking was that it was a resonance thing, and that standard matrix security simply didn't detect it because it was a complex form not a matrix action, but the wording doesn't really hold up to that interpretation. It looks more like Editor is just a way to edit and otherwise mess with a file without having a Mark on it.

[Elfenlied]

Several technomancers sat at various tables I ran at Gen Con. The only time they were really effective were as back up to the hacker.

I believe this was intended by the developers? SR5 has gone to great lengths to bring back Deckers.

[Sengir]

I believe this was intended by the developers? SR5 has gone to great lengths to bring back Deckers.

I'd say they went to great lengths to redesign the Matrix once more, reintroducing deckers was a welcome side effect. Because all there is to the new decks basically boils down to "security got upgraded and we developed ASICs to break it, henceforth known as decks".

[Pollution]

Editor, page 252: "You infuse a file with Resonance long enough to manipulate its contents. Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test against the Intuition + Data Processing of the file’s owner. You can make the same amount of changes to the file that you would be able to make with your net hits in Edit File actions."

I had hoped that "manipulate contents" was an intentional way around "edit" as a trigger/restriction for data bombs and protection. My thinking was that it was a resonance thing, and that standard matrix security simply didn't detect it because it was a complex form not a matrix action, but the wording doesn't really hold up to that interpretation. It looks more like Editor is just a way to edit and otherwise mess with a file without having a Mark on it.

I don't know. I actually think that it DOES go around the databomb aspect... Or at least maybe copies it all over into a new file with the same settings on it.

The reason I think this is that there are almost NO spells/CF's that do the same thing as another NORMAL action. The Edit Matrix action is able to be used by ANYONE in the matrix (Decker, adept decker, or a technomancer) without the need for a specific program/CF/power. Therefore, the editor CF must be special in some way.

If this was 4th or 4a, I would agree with you. CF's were just "copies" of a program but using the resonance angle. NOW, a Technomnacer can do anything a Decker can, out the gate, without spending BP, Karma, or some other system to do so. There are no programs to achieve your ends, only Actions (disregarding the actual programs which are now mods to actions).

So, that brings up the question of Editor and Edit. Why on God's Green Earth would they put a CF to copy a matrix action without the DIRECT INTENTION to make it different from the plain action?

If you have Logic 5, Software 5, that's 10 dice for Edit action.
If you have Resonance 5, Software 5, you're still looking at 10 dice for Editor.... Why the hell would they do that? Yeah, you can have Resonance 6, making it a +1 die rolled, but that's hardly worth 7 karma to pick up something you can do out of the gate.

No, there has to be another reason? Is it just marks? you don't need marks? That COULD be it, however getting marks doesn't take very long (though it does increase OS).

A Decker with Edit action and a Technomancer using Editor (with the exact same stats, baring Resonance) will achieve the exact same end. The Decker will get a few points of OS more than the Technomancer, and might take an extra turn, but the end result is the same, and the OS increase is most likely only 2-3 points.

So what makes Editor special? It has to be something other than, "This CF does exactly the same thing as the action you can do without spending karma or taking drain to do."

I kind of feel like because it's a CF, it might just bypass more than just Mark requirements and OS. For the love of all that is shiny, you're going to take Fading damage 1/2 the time when you do it.

If they're the same thing, I'll NEVER buy Editor. It's not worth the fade and the karma. It just isn't.

EVERY other CF has a specific and VERY special use that you can't get with a Matrix action (some programs might do SIMILAR, but not the same thing).

[shonen_mask]

The thing i find funny is the fact that the Matrix as in SR4 was more secure just by being so hostile to everyone using it. It amounted to individuals or small groups snarling over virtual carcasses dumped on the road by thoes in the 'know'...

The assessability of the Matrix has improved therefore lowering the hostility.
And the addition of a unified defensive system helps too.....

[SpellBinder]

I believe this was intended by the developers? SR5 has gone to great lengths to bring back Deckers.

The thing i find funny is the fact that the Matrix as in SR4 was more secure just by being so hostile to everyone using it. It amounted to individuals or small groups snarling over virtual carcasses dumped on the road by thoes in the 'know'...

The assessability of the Matrix has improved therefore lowering the hostility.
And the addition of a unified defensive system helps too.....

Well, yeah. It's Deckerrun now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[BlackJaw]

Well, yeah. It's Deckerrun now... :sarcasm:

Make that Magic-Decker-Run if you really want to beat on the dying horse. The Decker-Adept-with-Cerebralboosters is a potent hacker build. I'm looking at 23+ dice on a Hack on the Fly action, and that's with the Running Silent penalty canceling out the Hot VR bonus.

The Matrix is both more and less secure now. The outright hacker based theft I could pull in 4th edition isn't possible anymore thanks to ownership rules, but the game was specifically designed to make hacking faster and more effective in the short run. To counter that concept they also made it time limited, and expensive, which is to say that script kiddies aren't dancing all over the matrix because you can't use a commlink to hack (and decks are quasi-illegal and expensive), and the zombie-bot armies of hacked commlinks aren't really possible any more because your OS goes up with time once you start hacking, and your marks vanish when you reboot or get dumped.

[Jaid]

what the editor CF does is let you edit things a whole heck of a lot faster. you can perform your net hits in edit actions. whether or not you can use that to edit the next [net hits] rounds of a live video feed is somewhat open to interpretation though =S

[DWC]

Adept/Hackers in 4th i felt were relegated to finding a few specializations and staying just o.k.
as far as the rest of their technicial skills. But do you see a support role for adept type deckers more relevent?

The rule changes do make hacking the matrix in SR5 more acessable i guess.

I found quite the opposite. An Adept hacker with the right 1 point of Essence loss was vastly superior to a purely technological hacker.

[BigGreenSquid]

I found quite the opposite. An Adept hacker with the right 1 point of Essence loss was vastly superior to a purely technological hacker.

There is a whole lot you can squeeze into that 1 point of essence loss, and things like a datajack and sim module could be left out via trodes.

[shonen_mask]

There is a whole lot you can squeeze into that 1 point of essence loss, and things like a datajack and sim module could be left out via trodes.

I liked the math processor and the one more that inhanced logic that i forget the name of....

but even with, it was hard to get hacking skills on par with a good hacker build. Adepts tended to have some type of secondary skill set completely unrelated to the Matrix that needed at least as many points..

[Raiden]

I liked the math processor and the one more that inhanced logic that i forget the name of....

but even with, it was hard to get hacking skills on par with a good hacker build. Adepts tended to have some type of secondary skill set completely unrelated to the Matrix that needed at least as many points..

not really, you can, as an adept, specialize completely in the matrix.

[shonen_mask]

not really, you can, as an adept, specialize completely in the matrix.

True.

But then there is the problem of your character not being able to do anything else. I guess if I find a group that needs a pure decker I will try just that.

[DWC]

Or you're a hacker/face, which means you're spending a paltry amount of your power points on kinesics, and two skills, which does nothing to dilute your hacking ability and actually improves your value to the team as a researcher since you can do legwork in and out of the matrix with ease.

[Dantic]

The more theorycrafting I do with Technos for 5e, the more depressed I become. If someone was that hard on for the return of the "Decker", they should have found a way of making it a unique and viable choice, without completely marginalizing the Technomancers. Even the priority build is slanted against Technomancers.

[Jaid]

The more theorycrafting I do with Technos for 5e, the more depressed I become. If someone was that hard on for the return of the "Decker", they should have found a way of making it a unique and viable choice, without completely marginalizing the Technomancers. Even the priority build is slanted against Technomancers.

it was a perfectly viable build in 4e. technomancers were pretty danged good at being the classic decker who sits in a heavily fortified van while everyone else goes in for the run, but as soon as you tried to fit both hacking and a second area of specialty in you were pretty much screwed. you could replace a regular decker fairly well, especially as you started earning karma (although the regular decker wasn't completely left in the cold, i don't feel the cyber available to make one a better decker was competitive with the stuff available to technomancers). but try and replace, say, a combat decker who can be almost as effective as a street samurai, or a decker who was good at physical infiltration or social engineering (never mind trying to mix in a bit of all of the above), and you were pretty much going to have a bad time.

even combining decker with rigger was a bit rough, although certainly mitigated by the remote control option and the fact that you didn't need any high attributes to pull it off.

in short, any decker that wanted to anything beyond just decking was going to be significantly better off not being a technomancer. unless we get into theoretical case discussions where said technomancer has had a few hundred karma to spend or something, but at that point our theoretical technomancer is probably not much better at being a technomancer than he was when the character was built.

[Dantic]

in short, any decker that wanted to anything beyond just decking was going to be significantly better off not being a technomancer.

That's just it though, I think whoever created the new Matrix rules was so hung up on bringing back the "Decker" (in RAW 4 they were "Hackers") that they just marginalized TMs as a result of the focus on semantics. They could have found a better way (IMHO) to reintroduce the concept of decking, without gutting Technomancers.
The concept of the wireless world and the introduction of TMs (they are not just evolved Otaku) was my favorite part of SR4. Most of the changes for "Deckers" I actually like. The ability to change your setup, on-the-fly, is a great boon to those guys.
I don't like the concept of TMs as "Matrix Magicians", but if that is what you are going to make them, then at least make them comparable. Don't make them 30 Karma more expensive to create. For the higher build cost you also get an analog to spirits that are far less powerful than spirits and much more prohibitive Drain/Fading costs.

[shonen_mask]

All Matrix related characters are suffering the same marginalization.
Now it doesn't matter how high your skills are eventually your illigal actions will get you noticed. No more 'hijacking' and 'spamming' then bragging how cool you hacker is.....

Maybe thr real intent of the authors is to incourage mult-skilled, multi purposed runners.

[SpellBinder]

Just seems to emphasize more speed and recklessness than care and caution. You blast in, do what you want, jack out, and reboot. Deckers have the advantage of higher limits and more flexible options in programs. Technomancers... Well, they're no longer the super heroes of the matrix as they're relegated to "hero support", the caste few strive to be.

And in all honesty the blasting in part is something that can been done in SR4 as well.

[shonen_mask]

Just seems to emphasize more speed and recklessness than care and caution. You blast in, do what you want, jack out, and reboot. Deckers have the advantage of higher limits and more flexible options in programs. Technomancers... Well, they're no longer the super heroes of the matrix as they're relegated to "hero support", the caste few strive to be.

And in all honesty the blasting in part is something that can been done in SR4 as well.

I agree.

The only way to solve that now, is to get physically closer to a target then get out. Or plan small incursions to gather useful info. Very doable from a roleplay sense with relativly less risk....

SR4 was an environment where every turn you character took creeping through the matrix was potentially a game ender since useful nodes/targets were very well defended by a very highly thought out, layered matrix computer scheme. It made almost no sense not to have a hyper-skilled hacker character just to be passable.

[Dantic]

Maybe thr real intent of the authors is to incourage mult-skilled, multi purposed runners.

So, my TM, with no augmentation, and with machine sprites which can no longer interact with machines and no way to boost his own meat stats and sprites which get no optional abilities based on their level, should grab a gun and start shooting back? That or suck up the essence and resonance hit and get cybered (after all I only had to spend the same priority as a full Mage to get resonance and I only get 30 karma less of benefits for the same priority).
Maybe I should submerge three times and be a Riggermancer. Of course I still can't use a remote deck and my living persona at the same time. Of course I can always overthread my complex forms and ruin someone's day, If I'm willing to eat the non-healable physical damage to do it.
The best I have been able to come up with so far, is a human TM with 7 edge to be able to exceed limits and soak the fading. Of course the priority table is unbalanced for special stats for Humans, so you can only do that with A priority for Techno and C for race, but it IS possible. With this build I can wait around for the right moment to unload, scrub some unsuspecting Decker and then let the rest of the team finish up the run while I take a nap. The other bright spot is, if we don't have a need to frag some poor schmuck in the Trix, I can use that spare edge on compiling/registering, between runs for my limited highly specialized sprites.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, my TM, with no augmentation, and with machine sprites which can no longer interact with machines and no way to boost his own meat stats and sprites which get no optional abilities based on their level, should grab a gun and start shooting back? That or suck up the essence and resonance hit and get cybered (after all I only had to spend the same priority as a full Mage to get resonance and I only get 30 karma less of benefits for the same priority).

Well, yes... Sometimes using a gun is a better alternative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That said... Technomancers were sorely nerfed in SR5, and for no apparent reason. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)