[X] My Assistant

[Sendaz]

It's a shame a lot of the nanowire is being redone because that had awesome hack potential if you hacked the hive.

Or imagine buildings that had nanosystems built & maintained right in the walls. Need to reconfigure a floor's layout, program it in for during midnight maintenance and the nanos could have it ready overnight....

Anyway....

I think a lot of stuff has been scale back so it has longer game potential and you can't cap out right away, but I also think some of the basic functions got booted up the tree a bit further than intended or wise.

[quentra]

I actually had a question about TMs - for most devices, if in use the device icon is subsumed by the persona icon (requiring a Matrix Perception check to see the device), but for TMs, they only have their persona. Meaning that a cop (or anyone, really) can take a Matrix Perception action at a TMs persona and go 'Waitaminute, this person isn't using a device...OH NOES TECHNOMANCER PROLLY CRIMINAL KILL IT KILL IT WITH FIRE'.

I'm hoping I read that wrong, so is that actually what TMs are expected to be? In addition to all the mechanical nerfs, they're also retardedly simple to discover? I mean, that's practically unplayable at that level.

[SpellBinder]

I don't think you're reading it wrong. Kinda how I read it too. Technomancers are not recognized as devices (true in SR4 as well), but they don't automatically run in hidden mode anymore and cannot slave a commlink to hide behind like they used to. They can still run in silent mode like other things, and suffer the same dice pool penalty as well.

[shonen_mask]

But the can remove an overwatch score and nobody can do that I think....

A technomancer/decker sounds real good.



Tymeaus Jalynsfein;

What do you mean when you say machine sprites can no longer interact with machines?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus Jalynsfein;

What do you mean when you say machine sprites can no longer interact with machines?

I did not say that, Shonen_Mask... Dantic Did... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think that Dantic believes that the Machine Sprit is a Sprite that has no actual control of Machines. It does not accomplish the task it is handed. At least, that is how I read it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I know in SR4A, they had some issues with such (though not much), and from what Dantic indicated, that apparently continues/has been exacerbated? Do not currently have access to confirm that information, though. I DO know that Technomancers have been the abused victim of the Nerf Bat, though. Sadly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Jack VII]

Everytime a Resonance Spike is threaded, a Sprite Decompiles.

[SpellBinder]

But the can remove an overwatch score and nobody can do that I think....

A technomancer/decker sounds real good.

Cleaner: A Software + Resonance [Level] test at a Fading of Level + 1 to remove net hits in OS.

A reboot is faster and easier. Yes you lose your MARKs, but your OS can drop from 39 to 0 in one combat turn.

Do your hack job and reboot right away. Matrix S.O.P.

[shonen_mask]

Cleaner: A Software + Resonance [Level] test at a Fading of Level + 1 to remove net hits in OS.

A reboot is faster and easier. Yes you lose your MARKs, but your OS can drop from 39 to 0 in one combat turn.

Do your hack job and reboot right away. Matrix S.O.P.

It looks like a good complex since it can be used anytime not just when your in trouble. And other deckers can call it useful, particularly if they arent technomancers....

[Jaid]

It looks like a good complex since it can be used anytime not just when your in trouble. And other deckers can call it useful, particularly if they arent technomancers....

it's less bad than some of the other ones, mostly because using it is unlikely to leave you crumpled in a heap for a few hours as those other ones are.

but when the matrix is designed around fast resolution, well... if you're only making 4-6 checks to hack something, it's not that hard to just hack, reboot, and start fresh on whatever your next project is most of the time.

[SpellBinder]

Forgot to mention, too, that as that Complex Form is Permanent it must be sustained for a number of Combat Turns equal to its Level before it actually takes effect.

Kinda makes me think Cleaner, and the reverse Tattletale, might've been better off as Instant instead...

[Dantic]

What do you mean when you say machine sprites can no longer interact with machines?

Machine Sprites in SR4 got command as a complex form and the ability to use an autosoft CF as an optional ability. They still have the powers of Stability, Gremlins, and Diagnostics, but can no longer issue commands (a remote control action which requires data processing the sprite doesn't get). They also can no longer get the autosofts as a an optional CF (they get no optional abilities of any kind in relation to their level). So they can basically try and crash a machine, help prevent someone else from crashing a machine, or help someone who is using a machine to get a bonus, but they can no longer directly control machines through command nor "jumping in"


Edit: Machine Sprites do get the Hardware skill as a trade off. They have no physical form to use tools for B/R actions, but hey you can't have everything.

[shonen_mask]

it's less bad than some of the other ones, mostly because using it is unlikely to leave you crumpled in a heap for a few hours as those other ones are.

but when the matrix is designed around fast resolution, well... if you're only making 4-6 checks to hack something, it's not that hard to just hack, reboot, and start fresh on whatever your next project is most of the time.

If your in a gird you hacked onto you risk getting dumped off. But with the 0 overwatch makes it very optional. I agree.

[Rubic]

Well, yes... Sometimes using a gun is a better alternative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That said... Technomancers were sorely nerfed in SR5, and for no apparent reason. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

From a look at it, they're the victim of a mis-application of game theory, specifically regarding balance. In SR4, they were, in some regards, far too powerful an option compared to other hackers. Sprites were very powerful, and threading was, generally, an easy soak. Complex forms were expensive, but once you had them you didn't have to worry about swapping like a decker did. Beyond that, resonance realms were something exclusive to TM's alone, and provided great amounts of support.

In making SR5, not just for TMs but rather across the board, they looked at all the things that were deemed "too powerful" and "too weak," hereafter referred to as "broken," and swapped them. TM's were too adaptable and deckers weren't? Flipped. Fading for threading wasn't much of an issue, and didn't hold TMs back? Flipped. Sprites were a powerful resource and relatively easy to summon? Flipped. Cost of gear was accessible mid-to-late game, allowing most sams, riggers, and deckers to "cross class" with little trouble once they had the money? Flipped.

They didn't pay enough attention to the things they were rebalancing. If A, B, and C are broken in 4.0, but A and C affect the same part of gameplay, then you can't just flip A and C both and consider it fixed. While there was apparently playtesting, it doesn't seem like technomancers were promoted properly as a playtest option, or run alongside deckers to see if they could be a viable option in their own right. If they WERE, then somebody with a heavy bias against them was either unmonitored or in a position of unrivaled authority regarding their creation. Alternatively... perhaps it was really just horrible typos.

[Jaid]

Machine Sprites in SR4 got command as a complex form and the ability to use an autosoft CF as an optional ability. They still have the powers of Stability, Gremlins, and Diagnostics, but can no longer issue commands (a remote control action which requires data processing the sprite doesn't get). They also can no longer get the autosofts as a an optional CF (they get no optional abilities of any kind in relation to their level). So they can basically try and crash a machine, help prevent someone else from crashing a machine, or help someone who is using a machine to get a bonus, but they can no longer directly control machines through command nor "jumping in"


Edit: Machine Sprites do get the Hardware skill as a trade off. They have no physical form to use tools for B/R actions, but hey you can't have everything.

not sure why you think machine sprites don't get data processing. it's a matrix attribute, and they do have it. in fact, they have it at level +3, it is actually their highest matrix attribute.

you are right on the other stuff though... they don't have any way to access the skills they would need to use to do well with controlling things, with the exception of the hardware skill. well, and i guess jamming things.

[Jack VII]

you are right on the other stuff though... they don't have any way to access the skills they would need to use to do well with controlling things, with the exception of the hardware skill. well, and i guess jamming things.

I also don't see any way for a Machine Sprite to get a mark on an icon, so they wouldn't be able to be used offensively to control enemy drones or weapons (I guess this is where Gremlins is supposed to come in). You could invite marks on your own drones if you had them and let them Control Device, but again, no relevant skills.

[Shinobi Killfist]

We have not had a technomancer yet in our game, but to me it looks like they are a few dice worse but have some added tricks. Their drain is a bit bit too high and a couple of their initiation tricks I would have either left uncapped or with a higher cap but overall not as bad as people seem to be making out. What am I missing?

[SpellBinder]

Lost abilities from SR4. Spoofing being a device to connect, flexibility, Slaving, being part of a PAN/WAN, and jumping into drones. That's all gone now, save the last but jumping into drones now requires an echo.

Gained was an obvious icon that anyone can now see unless the technomancer runs silent, and that cannot be hidden behind a commlink like before.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We have not had a technomancer yet in our game, but to me it looks like they are a few dice worse but have some added tricks. Their drain is a bit bit too high and a couple of their initiation tricks I would have either left uncapped or with a higher cap but overall not as bad as people seem to be making out. What am I missing?

Biggest Remaining Issue (other than what Spellbinder covered) is that their Fading is too high for what it does. The Technomancer I made is not bad, Dice wise, but the Fading is a severe limit to their abilities. Even Mages do not get saddled with the atrocious Drain that Technomancers will face.

For Example:

Spells -
Control Actions: F-1
Mob Control: F+1
Control Thoughts: F-1
Mob Mind: F+1

Complex Form -
Puppeteer: L+4

Why the difference? They do roughtly the same thing in their respective fields, but Technomancers get right hosed, while the Mage does not.

[DMK]

There are several things that come to mind. I'm not an expert (built my first Technomancer the other day, thread here if you're curious) but reading through the forums has brought a few things to my attention:

1) Deckers improve their Decks with Nuyen, Technomancers have to use Karma.
2) Deckers can run overwatch on their group's devices through slaving into a PAN. Technomancers cannot be part of a PAN.
3) Deckers can be Riggers at character generation. Technomancers have to Submerge in order to have a RCC.
4) The Fading for Resonance Skills & threading Complex Forms is, generally speaking quite high. Many more knowledgeable souls then I believe it to be too high.
5) There is a belief that Sprites are much less powerful then in 4/4A. (I have 4A, but have never been inspired to compare.)

I'm sure there's more.

Still, I'd really, really like to play the TM I built above sometime. I think he'd be fun.

[Sendaz]

Why the difference? They do roughtly the same thing in their respective fields, but Technomancers get right hosed, while the Mage does not.

Because deep down all technomancy is really an altered form of magic and that extra 3 drain cost is the buffer cost for transistion into the virtual domain? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

*ducks and runs*

Just kidding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But yeah, I can't say why the costs are they way they be.

Maybe they didn't want to mirror magic too closely, oh look Mind control spell is X drain and Puppeteer is X Fading with X being the same.

[Jack VII]

I cry myself to sleep at night thinking about an Edgeless Resonance Spike.

[SpellBinder]

There are several things that come to mind. I'm not an expert (built my first Technomancer the other day, thread here if you're curious) but reading through the forums has brought a few things to my attention:

1) Deckers improve their Decks with Nuyen, Technomancers have to use Karma.
2) Deckers can run overwatch on their group's devices through slaving into a PAN. Technomancers cannot be part of a PAN.
3) Deckers can be Riggers at character generation. Technomancers have to Submerge in order to have a RCC.
4) The Fading for Resonance Skills & threading Complex Forms is, generally speaking quite high. Many more knowledgeable souls then I believe it to be too high.
5) There is a belief that Sprites are much less powerful then in 4/4A. (I have 4A, but have never been inspired to compare.)

I'm sure there's more.

Still, I'd really, really like to play the TM I built above sometime. I think he'd be fun.

Just to add a little:

1: And both also spend karma to improve their skills. Technomancers are now limited by their mental attributes while deckers are still theoretically open ended with the gear.
3: Technomancers can still be riggers at character generation. Even if a GM doesn't allow a submersion grade one can take a hit to their Resonance and have a Control Rig implanted in their brain, not that many will take this option.
5: With the requirement of a task just to re-register a sprite or to send it onto standby (surprised calling one from standby doesn't count), and then the automatic OS they generate, yes, using sprites has been gimped some. (Yes, I know summoners have to spend nuyen to bind spirits, but spirits also have a much wider direct application than many sprites which are limited largely to the matrix.)

And Sendaz, from a friend of mine who was at the last GenCon to witness this is the fourth line in my signature.

Oh, TJ, don't forget these...

Complex Forms:
Infusion Of [Matrix Attribute] - Level +1
Diffusion Of [Matrix Attribute] - Level +1

Spell:
Increase [Attribute] - Force -3

Those two complex forms are much more limited in scope than the spell, and as technomancers aren't devices they can't even target themselves (or each other) with those two complex forms to try and buff themselves.

[Jack VII]

With a lot of TLC, TMs can synergize modestly with drones. They can purchase an RCC and slave the drones to that to provide the Noise, Autosoft Sharing, and Firewall protection. They can stiill send orders to the drones using Send Message as the Owner of the drone. They can defend their drones from being marked in the matrix and fight off hostile deckers.

That's all the positive. Then it starts sucking immediately.

1) Why bother? Most drones explode into beautiful fireballs when they catch a stray round from a Streetline Special.

2) Since they are almost certainly in the Matrix as an LP, they presumably can't send messages through the RCC to multiple drones as once.

3) Want to Erase MARKs placed by an enemy decker? Go right ahead, but note that it is considered a Matrix Attack action and thus starts your OS count (one of the main reasons for being a TM in the first place).

I've built a TM. I'd love to try him out, but I can't help but think he is going to be unconcious within the first 15 minutes of the game.

[Jaid]

I also don't see any way for a Machine Sprite to get a mark on an icon, so they wouldn't be able to be used offensively to control enemy drones or weapons (I guess this is where Gremlins is supposed to come in). You could invite marks on your own drones if you had them and let them Control Device, but again, no relevant skills.

just checked, and it turns out you can default on hacking tests in SR5. they may not be very *good* at getting marks on things, but if the target is weak enough (say, a DR 2 device that is not slaved to something better) then a decent rating machine sprite will actually have a roughly even chance of getting a mark. of course, a better way would be to spoof (or, if you're feeling optimistic about your ability to soak fading, use puppeteer) a mark on behalf of your machine sprite, then let it take over from there. or rather, it would be a better way if machine sprites didn't also suck at performing most tasks through a device.

i'm not saying machine sprites didn't get nerfed or anything... i'm just saying that they can still potentially control a device. poorly.

Those two complex forms are much more limited in scope than the spell, and as technomancers aren't devices they can't even target themselves (or each other) with those two complex forms to try and buff themselves.

as it happens, "device" complex forms can also be used on personas; page 252, resonance library "A complex form with a Device target can also be used to target a persona". (and no, i don't have any idea why it would make more sense to put that absolutely critical piece of information into a paragraph that you're fairly likely to skip over reading than to just put that into the heading of each complex form, which as far as i can tell have plenty of room for it).

[Jack VII]

just checked, and it turns out you can default on hacking tests in SR5.

You know, I even made the effort to go to that part of the book in the PDF and then promptly forgot to check and presumed that Cybercombat and Hacking were No Default skills. LOL. Hmm.. so I wonder if not having any Pilot Skills would increase your sprite's chances of driving a Roto-Drone into the ground? "I'm going to attempt a loop-de-loop."