Initiation during Character Generation, Is it allowed in sr5? Options

[Chrome Head]

Very straightforward question. Are we allowed to spend 13 or even 29 or 48 karma during character generation to have grade 1, 2 or even 3 initiation?

I searched the forum but without luck.

Thanks for your help.

[Jaid]

nothing forbids it yet, but i seem to recall something in the missions errata about it, and iirc the missions information is based on what the expected official errata will be (which may not wind up being what the official errata actually is, admittedly).

[Samoth]

It is allowed by the RAW but will almost certainly be eratted out.

[ElFenrir]

So far it seems to be a case of 'Ask your GM.' It's not prohibited specifically but some GMs may not allow it. (My own personal feelings; I'd not have a problem with it in some games, in others I'd choose to not allow it. It would be depending on the particular game I'd be running.)

[Irion]

Well, I guess the elephant in the room is the question if you get to buy yourself an initiation an after that add your special attribute points to your magic attribute.

[forgarn]

In our group it depends on the game we are playing. If we are playing an advanced character game (or prime runner) then yes I do allow it as part of character gen because you are creating a runner that has been around for a while and to not have initiated in that time would be ridiculous. However, if we are playing a newbie runner game then no it is not allowed.

I agree that it is not specifically prohibited, but I think that the reason for that is that there is nothing listing it as an option in the character gen rules. There is no cost for it, there is no listing for it in the "additional purchases & restrictions" tables, etc. The only place there is a listing for it is in the character advancement tables, and in the magic section. That is our interpretation of it.

Well, I guess the elephant in the room is the question if you get to buy yourself an initiation an after that add your special attribute points to your magic attribute.

We do not allow that. When we do allow it, it must be done after you do your magic has been "set".

[Lobo0705]

Well, I guess the elephant in the room is the question if you get to buy yourself an initiation an after that add your special attribute points to your magic attribute.

That is easy - no you do not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You create a character in a certain order - following the steps laid out by the book. The first thing you do is select which metahuman type you are, and assign special attribute points. Spending karma is one of the last things you do - so even if your GM allows you to initiate, you should in no way be allowed to spend special attribute points to increase your magic afterwards.

[ElFenrir]

You can add special attribute points to Magic, but not in the Initiation way.

You can, say, take Magic B and use SA points to make it 6, but you can't take Magic B, then Initiate, and then add them.

[The Masked Ferre...]

nothing forbids it yet, but i seem to recall something in the missions errata about it, and iirc the missions information is based on what the expected official errata will be (which may not wind up being what the official errata actually is, admittedly).

For Missions, according to Bull, Initiation at Character creation is not allowed.

[Isath]

In principle I would allow it, if it suits the character. Infact, I would allow anything Karma allows, all depending on the campaignsetting ofcourse.

What I would not allow, is to invest special attribute points on the new maximum. Initiation happens as a finishing touch.

[Irion]

That is easy - no you do not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You create a character in a certain order - following the steps laid out by the book. The first thing you do is select which metahuman type you are, and assign special attribute points. Spending karma is one of the last things you do - so even if your GM allows you to initiate, you should in no way be allowed to spend special attribute points to increase your magic afterwards.

Yeah, for any reasonable human beeing. But you know what they say where reason goes if intrests are in play...

[DireRadiant]

It's interesting because in the book on p. 67 is the following example where the order of character creation is changed.

"He intends to take the Exceptional Attribute quality, which would allow
him to take his Strength up to 11, and the gamemaster has given Rob
permission to take this quality at character creation. Knowing this ahead
of time, Rob has spent the points to give his character Strength 11."

[Maelwys]

Technically that's not out of order, that's planning ahead (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But it is sort of strange. Just how "locked" are you into the order? Obviously you can plan ahead somewhat. Presumably if you can do it ahead of time with strength, why not magic as well? If you're spending Karma on the Exceptional attribute, but planned ahead and already spent the points on raising strength to your new maximum, why can't you plan ahead, spend the special points on what your magic max is going to be after initiation? Both Exceptional attribute and Initiation are bought with Karma (or sort of faux karma, considering qualities later on are bought at 2x the karma price), why can't you raise them both with points?

Mind you, that's probably some of the things that gets eyerolls from the GM, but it certainly seems possible.

As for initiating at character generation, I don't see a problem with it (if you're going to limit something, never use the phrase "etc" when describing what you CAN buy), though if I were GMing I'd expect one heck of a backstory and would reserve the right to say "no."

[shinryu]

initiation is iffy, but submersions really need to be allowed. otherwise, rigger technomancers are screwed. i personally don't have a problem with initiation at character creation, especially if it's not an excuse just to dump more points into magic. certain alchemists really need fixation metamagic to work well, for example. seems reasonable to allow intiation/submersion for these cases.

[DMiller]

In general I would not allow initiation/submersion during character creation. With one exception... I would allow a Technomancer to submerge to be able to start the game as a rigger, but as a general rule of thumb I would not allow initiation/submersion.

I also would not allow the spending os Special Attribute points on the new increased attribute maximum.

[Lurker37]

If it's legal to spend attribute points on 'Exceptional' Strength, then it's legal to spend special attribute points on 'Exceptional' Magic or Edge.

And if you can spend special attribute points to get to Magic 7 from using one karma-bought positive quality, I really don't see any reason to forbid it for initiation.

So if the player was allowed to initiate at chargen, then yes, I'd let the player spend special attribute points on Magic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If it's legal to spend attribute points on 'Exceptional' Strength, then it's legal to spend special attribute points on 'Exceptional' Magic or Edge.

And if you can spend special attribute points to get to Magic 7 from using one karma-bought positive quality, I really don't see any reason to forbid it for initiation.

So if the player was allowed to initiate at chargen, then yes, I'd let the player spend special attribute points on Magic.

Indeed...

[Chrome Head]

If it's legal to spend attribute points on 'Exceptional' Strength, then it's legal to spend special attribute points on 'Exceptional' Magic or Edge.

And if you can spend special attribute points to get to Magic 7 from using one karma-bought positive quality, I really don't see any reason to forbid it for initiation.

So if the player was allowed to initiate at chargen, then yes, I'd let the player spend special attribute points on Magic.

I doubt it will be the official interpretation, for the simple reason that it can be abused.

Because why stop at initiation grade 1? It costs 48 karma to get to the third grade, which can be done with negative qualities that sum to 23 karma and your starting 25. Now, get Magic A and Metatype D or better for a human, and you start the game with a magic rating of 9 if you want. If you take metatype B and get a ton of edge on top (magic 9, edge 6), I bet you could then manage to summon a spirit force 18, use your edge on summoning and draining, and then basically rule the world until sunset. Not to mention that you get ridiculous karma-worth from taking those priorities, with the 3 special attributes on edge being the equivalent of spending a ridiculous 120 karma on your magic rating if it were during normal play.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I doubt it will be the official interpretation, for the simple reason that it can be abused.

Because why stop at initiation grade 1? It costs 48 karma to get to the third grade, which can be done with negative qualities that sum to 23 karma and your starting 25. Now, get Magic A and Metatype D or better for a human, and you start the game with a magic rating of 9 if you want. If you take metatype B and get a ton of edge on top (magic 9, edge 6), I bet you could then manage to summon a spirit force 18, use your edge on summoning and draining, and then basically rule the world until sunset. Not to mention that you get ridiculous karma-worth from taking those priorities, with the 3 special attributes on edge being the equivalent of spending a ridiculous 120 karma on your magic rating if it were during normal play.

That is why you have a GM. IF your GM can't handle that situation, then he probably should not be a GM. Abuse is easy to curb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)