SR5: defense and combat sense Options

[Odsh]

Sorry if this has been asked already, a quick search didn't reveal anything.

Passive defense in SR5 i given by Intuition + Reaction; in SR4 it was only Reaction in most cases. On top of that, attacks are now limited by the weapon's accuracy, whereas defense is not, as long as you don't make an active defense that uses a skill (which is weird in my opinion, but that's another problem).

My fear is that characters that invest heavily in their defense will become nearly untouchable. For example, a mage with Intuition 4, Reaction 4 and Willpower 4, with a sustained power 4 increase attribute spell on each of them (with three sustaining foci for example). Add on top of that a sustained power 6 combat sense spell and that mage has 30 dice when going on full defense. That makes 10 hits on average, more than most limits on attack rolls.

Am I missing something?

[Elfenlied]

Increase Attribute requires a Force equal to the target attribute. E.g. to Increase from 4 to 8 requires Force 8, not Force 4. Therefore, those sustaining Foci need to be Rating 8.

Also, many attack options (such as various bursts/choke) allow you to penalize the target's Dodge DP.

[Sendaz]

Revised:

yeah that is plenty scary so you have a couple options.

Send a mage in astrally to deactivate his foci in the middle of a fight so those defences go down. While reactivating the foci is a simple action for each plus he still has to recast again for each giving your shooter time to help his asthma (took the allergy negative you know) with a high velocity tracheostomy.

Grenades in small hallways will probably also work to some degree.


Other step is leave him alone, if he is running 30 Force (8+8+8+6 = 30 which is also his cap if magic is 6 (magic x 5 is max) ) in foci nonstop the foci addiction alone will ruin him down the road. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Odsh]

Increase Attribute requires a Force equal to the target attribute. E.g. to Increase from 4 to 8 requires Force 8, not Force 4. Therefore, those sustaining Foci need to be Rating 8.

I don't think so:

The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the Attribute being affected.

To me that means the value of the attribute before casting the spell, otherwise "augmented" would not be in parentheses. Here it simply means that the attribute may already be augmented before casting the spell.

[Sendaz]

I would not go solely by CGL's tendency to use improper brackets or placement. Have to dig this up in the forum somewhere but this was mentioned and it is Force against the Intended Stat. You still have to roll enough hits to actually get that boost. Extra hits that would take you over the targeted stat value are ignored.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Increase Attribute requires a Force equal to the target attribute. E.g. to Increase from 4 to 8 requires Force 8, not Force 4. Therefore, those sustaining Foci need to be Rating 8.

Also, many attack options (such as various bursts/choke) allow you to penalize the target's Dodge DP.

Equal to the Target Attribute means Force 4, not 8, in the example, as the Target Attribute is 4. The End result of the Spell would likely be 8 (limit of 4 hits), but that is not the target attribute. At least that is how it always was in SR4A. Let me compare to SR5.

Yep, I am right. The Spell must be of Force equal to the Attribute (Augmented or not). So, Force 4 in this case. Just like in SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HugeC]

If they had meant that, they could have written, "The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum, or the spell's Force, whichever is lower (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum or Force are ignored)."

I read it the same way Odsh does.

Edit: I thought I was replying to Sendaz.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If they had meant that, they could have written, "The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum, or the spell's Force, whichever is lower (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum or Force are ignored)."

I read it the same way Odsh does.

Edit: I thought I was replying to Sendaz.

You mean like the actual Quote in the book?

The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented maximum are ignored)

[Sendaz]

I stand corrected.

So for foci addiction it is just 18 total Force when he powers it all up. Still not healthy in the long run, so just lure him into leaving them on all the time and let him burn slooowwwly away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Other than that, again try to shutdown the foci or use situations where he won't be able to employ the dodge to full effect.

[Slide]

I stand corrected.

So for foci addiction it is just 18 total Force when he powers it all up. Still not healthy in the long run, so just lure him into leaving them on all the time and let him burn slooowwwly away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Other than that, again try to shutdown the foci or use situations where he won't be able to employ the dodge to full effect.

Its plenty healthy as long as he gets his fix, and I can stop anytime I want to.

[Sendaz]

Its plenty healthy as long as he gets his fix, and I can stop anytime I want to.

Foci are just a doorway device to the real hard stuff.... Mana Enhanced Reagent Dust (MERD), Elemental Smoke, Pixie Wing Powder, Dragon Spinal Fluid *shivers in memory of past delights*

[Odsh]

The mage was just an example. An adept with solid attributes and a few initiate grades can also boost his Combat Sense to the point where he can nearly dodge any attack that calls for a defense test. The dice pool for defense increases with the adept's experience. The limits on weapons don't.

[Jaid]

The mage was just an example. An adept with solid attributes and a few initiate grades can also boost his Combat Sense to the point where he can nearly dodge any attack that calls for a defense test. The dice pool for defense increases with the adept's experience. The limits on weapons don't.

full burst = -9 dice. full burst with a shotgun can get even a little bit more.

most area effect attacks don't allow a dodge roll.

pretty sure you don't get a defence roll against something you don't know is coming as well, so try catching them off guard.

but yes, an adept with a very high magic attribute, or a magician with some high force sustained spells who is probably addicted to his focuses, can indeed get a crazy dodge pool.

it's worth noting that initiation alone won't boost the adept's cap on combat sense though... he needs to actually raise magic, which takes quite a bit of karma to do.

[Slide]

Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dead!

Even a street sam can be pretty nasty at this starting out at 9 reaction, and 6 intuition. Not as high as magic by any means, but also not nearly as hard to lose, or become adicted to (my ess is only a .02, no problem.) Pair that up with some smoke/flash gernades and you have a lovely dancer.

[kerbarian]

Yes, it's definitely a problem if characters optimize for it, and Increase [Attribute] spells are a big part of it.

It's possible to have 32 dice on defense plus 7 Edge out of chargen with no focus addiction, and you can be a very strong spellcaster and summoner as well:

[ Spoiler ]

Metatype: Human

Body 3, Agi 3, Str 2, Rea 6(9), Wil 4(8*), Log 2, Int 4(8*), Cha 4(8*)
Edge 7, Ess 6, Mag 6 (Mystic Adept, Shaman)

Condition Monitor: 10 physical, 10(12*) stun
Armor: 12

Limits: Physical 6, Mental 4(7*), Social 6(10*)
Initiative: 13(17*) + 4d6

Active skills: Con 3, Counterspelling 6, Negotiation 3, Perception 4, Spellcasting 6, Summoning 6
Knowledge skills and languages: 12 free points

Qualities: Focused Concentration 4, -21 karma in negative qualities

Adept powers: Enhanced Senses [low-light, thermographic], Improved Reflexes 3

Spells: Combat Sense, Increase Charisma, Increase Intuition, Increase Willpower, +6 other spells

Gear: Sustaining Focus 4 (bonded), Sustaining Focus 1 (bonded), Armor Jacket, 100 drams of reagents, +37k nuyen of additional gear

Contacts: 12 free karma of contacts

* when Increase Attribute spells are sustained -- only two of the three attributes at a time

Note: This is only a skeleton character and is going for the extreme on defense. A more reasonable build would be to drop some Edge and/or resources for more skills.

That character can sustain two Increase Attribute spells at a time at Force 4, either on Int + Wil for maximum defense or Cha + Wil for summoning big spirits. Combat Sense can also be sustained in the Force 1 focus by casting at Force 1 and using either Edge or reagents to increase the limit -- it will average 4 hits when used with reagents or 7-8 hits when cast with Edge (that makes the drain physical, but it's only 2P and easily soaked).

With Int + Wil sustained, that's a base of 17 dice on defense, +7 from Combat Sense, and +8 with Full Defense, for a total of 32. The character also has plenty of edge for Second Chance if an attack ever does make it through -- 32 dice with Second Chance averages 18 hits.

With Focused Concentration, the total force of foci being used is only 5 compared to Magic 6, so focus addiction isn't even a problem.

As for how to deal with the situation... grenades and other area attacks don't allow a defense test, so that's probably the easiest route. Another option is to have wards all over the place so it's inconvenient to use active foci and sustained spells. If you want to get into house rules, I might only allow the Increase [Attribute] spell for physical attributes.

[Dolanar]

"Note that limits generally only apply to tests involving a dice pool derived from a skill and an attribute. Tests using a single attribute, or two attributes, do not use limits." Pg 47

I think this indicates that Dodge rolls (Att+Skill) it has a Limit of your Physical Limit. on another note, If this isn't a good spot for it...where else would you use Limits?

[Dolanar]

EDIT: the infamous double post -.-

[Abschalten]

I think this indicates that Dodge rolls (Att+Skill) it has a Limit of your Physical Limit. on another note, If this isn't a good spot for it...where else would you use Limits?

Dodge (Gymnastics), Parry (Blades/Clubs), and Block (Unarmed) interrupt actions do, indeed, use Physical limits. The book even says as much.

But if you go Full Defense, you add Willpower to your Reaction + Intuition, meaning you don't face a cap.

[Isath]

So if you don't have much strength, but a good defensepool (rea + int), you better don't use 5 point interrupt defenses without edge. They might come in handy when your defnsepool is low though.

[Chrome Head]

That character can sustain two Increase Attribute spells at a time at Force 4, either on Int + Wil for maximum defense or Cha + Wil for summoning big spirits. Combat Sense can also be sustained in the Force 1 focus by casting at Force 1 and using either Edge or reagents to increase the limit -- it will average 4 hits when used with reagents or 7-8 hits when cast with Edge (that makes the drain physical, but it's only 2P and easily soaked).

Increasing the limit of a force 1 spell with reagents and storing it in a force 1 sustaining focus is very cheesy and as a GM I would probably disallow it. It can be used for many different spells and has the potential to break a lot of things. These regents really mess up a lot of the balancing put into limits and spell force.

[SpellBinder]

A Force 1 focus should be rather easy to dispel...

Walking into an area with a BG count of +/- 1 will shut them down outright.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A Force 1 focus should be rather easy to dispel...

Walking into an area with a BG count of +/- 1 will shut them down outright.

This... My Magical Characters run into BGC/Wards often enough that a Rating 1 Focus is only useful about 60% of the time.

[SpellBinder]

Oh yeah, forgot about wards. At least for areas where awakened will take serious for magical security.

And just looked it up to make sure. Dispelling a Force 1 in a focus spell is a Counterspelling + Magic [Astral] vs. caster's Magic + 1 opposed test, all you need is one net hit to end the spell, and you'll take 2S in drain doing it. If you've got a Power focus or the right flavor of Counterspelling Sorcery focus, you'll get those dice right along with it.

[Chrome Head]

A Force 1 focus should be rather easy to dispel...

Walking into an area with a BG count of +/- 1 will shut them down outright.

Oh yeah, forgot about wards. At least for areas where awakened will take serious for magical security.

And just looked it up to make sure. Dispelling a Force 1 in a focus spell is a Counterspelling + Magic [Astral] vs. caster's Magic + 1 opposed test, all you need is one net hit to end the spell, and you'll take 2S in drain doing it. If you've got a Power focus or the right flavor of Counterspelling Sorcery focus, you'll get those dice right along with it.

This is wrong, you didn't read the whole thing. The opposed test is indeed much easier with force 1 (Magic + Counterspelling[Astral] vs Force + Magic), but you still have to dispel every hit the caster had when casting the spell, and this number might be pretty high. It's a drawback that is far from being at the level of the advantage you get.

For barriers, you can make a test to pass through instead of using brute force, and you are required one net hit for you +1 per each focus, still doable unless the barrier is quite high.

As for the background count, it's not in the book. The current errata states that you apply a DP penalty for a bg count, and that doesn't affect a sustaining focus with a spell already on it. Otherwise, it affects your spellcasting test with a negative DP, that's all.

[kerbarian]

And just looked it up to make sure. Dispelling a Force 1 in a focus spell is a Counterspelling + Magic [Astral] vs. caster's Magic + 1 opposed test, all you need is one net hit to end the spell, and you'll take 2S in drain doing it. If you've got a Power focus or the right flavor of Counterspelling Sorcery focus, you'll get those dice right along with it.

It takes more than one net hit to dispel -- each net hit reduces the caster's original hits by 1 (p.295). So you'd need 7 net hits to completely take down a Combat Sense spell that was originally cast with 7 hits.

You could alternately deactivate the focus using Disenchanting -- that only takes 1 net hit (and causes no drain), but you need LOS to the focus. Assuming the focus is kept inside clothing, you'd need an enemy caster who's astrally perceiving and has the Disenchanting skill. It's certainly possible, but it's not the kind of thing it's plausible to run into on a regular basis. And even then, you have an enemy mage -- who should be a major threat on her own -- spending actions just to weaken your defenses.