[X] My Assistant

[kerbarian]

For barriers, you can make a test to pass through instead of using brute force, and you are required one net hit for you +1 per each focus, still doable unless the barrier is quite high.

You'd need one net hit for each focus and for each sustained spell. So if you're sustaining two spells in two foci, you'd need four net hits to pass through a barrier with all of them. You can get through if you try enough times, but it might take a few rounds of standing around looking awkward and suspicious as you try to enter the bank.

That's also something security guards could be trained to watch for: people who have trouble crossing the line where they know a ward is set up. Though that's getting pretty deep into the territory of "magic is overpowered, but you can balance it by constantly applying in-game anti-mage tactics."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It takes more than one net hit to dispel -- each net hit reduces the caster's original hits by 1 (p.295). So you'd need 7 net hits to completely take down a Combat Sense spell that was originally cast with 7 hits.

You could alternately deactivate the focus using Disenchanting -- that only takes 1 net hit (and causes no drain), but you need LOS to the focus. Assuming the focus is kept inside clothing, you'd need an enemy caster who's astrally perceiving and has the Disenchanting skill. It's certainly possible, but it's not the kind of thing it's plausible to run into on a regular basis. And even then, you have an enemy mage -- who should be a major threat on her own -- spending actions just to weaken your defenses.

However, Most Force 1 Sustaining Foci can only have 1 Net Hit, as it is limited to 1 Hit. If they expended Edge on it, that may be different, but that is not the expected standard situation.

Besides, Mana Static (the Spell) of any force will shut it down. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You'd need one net hit for each focus and for each sustained spell. So if you're sustaining two spells in two foci, you'd need four net hits to pass through a barrier with all of them. You can get through if you try enough times, but it might take a few rounds of standing around looking awkward and suspicious as you try to enter the bank.

That's also something security guards could be trained to watch for: people who have trouble crossing the line where they know a ward is set up. Though that's getting pretty deep into the territory of "magic is overpowered, but you can balance it by constantly applying in-game anti-mage tactics."

Why is that treading upon the in-game effects of Magical Security? If you DON'T use magical security, then you are not applying the drawbacks of Magic. Magic IS powerful... But so is logically applied Magical Security... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Smash]

I think what people often forget is that we don't always roll expected outcomes in this game. We tend to think "attacker rolls 7 dice, defender rolls 10 therefore defender never gets hit". This isn't how dice rolling works.

It only takes the defender to roll lower than expected and the attacker to roll higher than expected for a hit to be achieved. This becomes much more likely if they get shot at by say 4 opponents. Then is the dodge mage built to soak? I doubt it.

This is why trolls and things with immunity to normal weapons and regeneration were significantly OP in 4th ED because you were often rolling 5-12 dice to dodge (12 if you were an adept only, otherwise it was 9-10 with maxed out reaction) against multiple attacks of equal of higher dice (a 5 agi, 5 firearms goon with a smartlink and specialisation rolls 14 dice). Soak was king and runners were always trying to get full body armour with stealth polymers.

You should be reluctant to jump on the 'grenades solve all problems lol!' crowd bandwagon because in 5th Ed they are hideously broken and basically insta-jib all characters besides tanks. I think focus addiction is a ruleset that is ignored too much. If you've got someone rolling 3 foci to enhance their dodge through the roof then make them pay for it. This isn't even considering the negative repurcussions of running foci all the time anyway (such as glowing like a christmass tree in astral space)

Roll with your standard setups, maybe just chuck in an extra shotgun guy or 2 every now and then and you'll probably find the challenge will be sufficient. It's important that you let things play out before trying to negate a percieved issue.

Finally if you're really worried about people making characters that obviously are outside the spirit of the game then just don't allow them. That's what I do whenever someone comes to my table with a masking nosferatu with 4 foci constatly runnig who wears full heavy body armour but appears just as 'an aloof elf'...................

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You should be reluctant to jump on the 'grenades solve all problems lol!' crowd bandwagon because in 5th Ed they are hideously broken and basically insta-jib all characters besides tanks. I think focus addiction is a ruleset that is ignored too much. If you've got someone rolling 3 foci to enhance their dodge through the roof then make them pay for it. This isn't even considering the negative repurcussions of running foci all the time anyway (such as glowing like a christmass tree in astral space)

Glowing like a Christmas tree is easy to plan for, and with a bit of Karma and time, easily avoided by Initiating towards Masking and Extended Masking.
As for Focus Addiction, by using Force 2 to Force 4 Foci (I like Force 3, but sometimes go to Force 4 with extended experience), and not using them all at once, it is easily avoidable.

[SpellBinder]

Maybe trade Extended Masking for Flexible Signature, so your astral signatures don't hang around for quite as long. Masking now also covers your Initiate Grade in bonded foci.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe trade Extended Masking for Flexible Signature, so your astral signatures don't hang around for quite as long. Masking now also covers your Initiate Grade in bonded foci.

The Triumvirate of Metamagics, as far as I am concerned. My Current Mystic Adept acquired those first.
Flexible Signature, Masking, Extended Masking, and eventually Centering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[phlapjack77]

The Triumvirate of Metamagics, as far as I am concerned. My Current Mystic Adept acquired those first.
Flexible Signature, Masking, Extended Masking, and eventually Centering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's 4! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(but I agree with your choices)

[Lobo0705]

That's 4! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(but I agree with your choices)

Our three main weapons are surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency, and a fanatical devotion to the Pope. Four, four main weapons - wait, I'll come in again...

[Smash]

That's 4! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(but I agree with your choices)

...and considering you can't start the game with any it's really a long road before the character can confortably do this to avoid negative repercussions. After investing 100 karma into this (possibly more) then you are probably a fairly experience runner, not to mention all the Roleplayed metaplane quests (or other trials) that the player has gone on to initiate 4 times.............

Players always seem to gloss over these things because GMs rarely enforce them. Therefore they are not the simple solutions players tend to see them as.

[RHat]

...and considering you can't start the game with any it's really a long road before the character can confortably do this to avoid negative repercussions. After investing 100 karma into this (possibly more) then you are probably a fairly experience runner, not to mention all the Roleplayed metaplane quests (or other trials) that the player has gone on to initiate 4 times.............

Players always seem to gloss over these things because GMs rarely enforce them. Therefore they are not the simple solutions players tend to see them as.

13+16+19+22, or 60 Karma.

[phlapjack77]

Our three main weapons are surprise, fear, ruthless efficiency, and a fanatical devotion to the Pope. Four, four main weapons - wait, I'll come in again...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

To the original topic, I think the most important takeaway is that Limits, yet again, are kinda a bad idea.

[Jack VII]

It's probably not super-relevant to this conversation, but I did want to point out that Combat Sense (the spell) is listed as an Active Detection spell. Unless that needs to be in errata, it means it is resisted.

[Odsh]

Back to the original topic:

Passive defense in SR5 i given by Intuition + Reaction; in SR4 it was only Reaction in most cases. On top of that, attacks are now limited by the weapon's accuracy, whereas defense is not, as long as you don't make an active defense that uses a skill (which is weird in my opinion, but that's another problem).

I forgot to mention another big change in SR5 that dramatically improves the defense mechanisms: full defense doesn't forfeit your next action anymore, instead you simply loose 10 initiative points (which would be the same as loosing your last action for the turn instead). And more importantly, full defense lasts now for the entire turn instead of only until your next action. In SR4, being on full defense meant that you didn't do anything else. In SR5, you can combine full defense with other actions, provided you have more than one action per turn of course.

Just FYI, in the end, we agreed on the following house rules:
1) SR4-style full defense
2) Combat Sense: the spell doesnt exist anymore. The adept power now costs 0.25 power points per level (instead of 0.5), but only gives a bonus dice every two levels (instead of 1 die per level). This effectively halves the maximum amount of bonus dice you can get from that power, but with the same "bang for you buck" as before.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's 4! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(but I agree with your choices)

Indeed it is... The Triumverate is the first three... Centering is just icing on the cake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

...and considering you can't start the game with any it's really a long road before the character can confortably do this to avoid negative repercussions. After investing 100 karma into this (possibly more) then you are probably a fairly experience runner, not to mention all the Roleplayed metaplane quests (or other trials) that the player has gone on to initiate 4 times.............

Players always seem to gloss over these things because GMs rarely enforce them. Therefore they are not the simple solutions players tend to see them as.

It only costs 44 Karma (with a Group/Ordeal - 8+10+12+14), plus 5 Karma to join the Magical Group; so 49 Total... Not much in the grand scehme of things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just FYI, in the end, we agreed on the following house rules:
1) SR4-style full defense
2) Combat Sense: the spell doesnt exist anymore. The adept power now costs 0.25 power points per level (instead of 0.5), but only gives a bonus dice every two levels (instead of 1 die per level). This effectively halves the maximum amount of bonus dice you can get from that power, but with the same "bang for you buck" as before.

Ummmmm... So why not cost the Power at 0.5 Per Level, and Use Levels as your bonus (rather than 0.25/level and 1/2 Level Bonus). Same effect, less craziness.

[SpellBinder]

I had wondered that at first, but then noticed that if you cap the power you're then getting half the bonus for the usual PP cost.

Would've been simpler to add "Max level at 1/2 Magic, rounded down." or maybe "Max Level 3" as a house rule. At least then a player wouldn't feel like they're wasting a quarter power point on nothing.

[Odsh]

I had wondered that at first, but then noticed that if you cap the power you're then getting half the bonus for the usual PP cost.

Yes, that is the point.

Would've been simpler to add "Max level at 1/2 Magic, rounded down." or maybe "Max Level 3" as a house rule. At least then a player wouldn't feel like they're wasting a quarter power point on nothing.

The maximum level for an adept power is given by Magic, and I prefer to avoid making an exception to that rule if possible. Moreover, this could potentially have weird side-effects on rules that take the level of the power into account (I admit, none comes to my mind at the moment).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, that is the point.

The maximum level for an adept power is given by Magic, and I prefer to avoid making an exception to that rule if possible. Moreover, this could potentially have weird side-effects on rules that take the level of the power into account (I admit, none comes to my mind at the moment).

There are plenty of Adept Powers possessing hard limits that have absolutely nothing to do with Magic Rating. *shrug*

[Odsh]

There are plenty of Adept Powers possessing hard limits that have absolutely nothing to do with Magic Rating. *shrug*

That may be, but in this case it isn't a hard limit and depends on the Magic Rating.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That may be, but in this case it isn't a hard limit and depends on the Magic Rating.

I see absolutely no need for the change to Combat Sense myself; might be why I have the opinion I do... *shrug*

[Shinobi Killfist]

By the way it looks like in SR5 masking is masking+improved masking as it hides focuses on its own.

[SpellBinder]

But Extended Masking in SR4 also included your anchored, sustained, and quickened spells in addition to your bonded foci. Masking in SR5 doesn't include any of your spells.

When the magic splat book comes out, likely Extended Masking will come back and include these.

[Shemhazai]

Metatype: Human

Body 3, Agi 3, Str 2, Rea 6(9), Wil 4(8*), Log 2, Int 4(8*), Cha 4(8*)
Edge 7, Ess 6, Mag 6 (Mystic Adept, Shaman)

Condition Monitor: 10 physical, 10(12*) stun
Armor: 12

Limits: Physical 6, Mental 4(7*), Social 6(10*)
Initiative: 13(17*) + 4d6

Active skills: Con 3, Counterspelling 6, Negotiation 3, Perception 4, Spellcasting 6, Summoning 6
Knowledge skills and languages: 12 free points

Qualities: Focused Concentration 4, -21 karma in negative qualities

Adept powers: Enhanced Senses [low-light, thermographic], Improved Reflexes 3

Spells: Combat Sense, Increase Charisma, Increase Intuition, Increase Willpower, +6 other spells

Gear: Sustaining Focus 4 (bonded), Sustaining Focus 1 (bonded), Armor Jacket, 100 drams of reagents, +37k nuyen of additional gear

Contacts: 12 free karma of contacts

* when Increase Attribute spells are sustained -- only two of the three attributes at a time

Note: This is only a skeleton character and is going for the extreme on defense. A more reasonable build would be to drop some Edge and/or resources for more skills.

I would choose an elf for this. You lose metatype points and your Increased Attribute (Charisma) force 4 focus/sustained concentration trick (Unless you wanted to lowball Charisma, but why would you?), but you gain low-light vision (saving you a whopping 0.25 Qi points) and the two points of Charisma could be worth it to you. YMMV.

I wouldn't do the Improved Reflexes 3. That's not stackable with anything else, and you can do the Force 1 + reagents trick to cast Increase Reflexes. If you want enough dice to get 8 hits for the full +4 Initiative, +4 dice, then you can spend Edge for Second Chance (big dice pool gives more failures than exploding sixes) and use an Aid Sorcery spirit service. You can then spend the 3.5 Qi points on Combat Sense to stack with your Combat Sense spell.

Maybe you don't need Focused Concentration at rating 4. Maybe rating 1 would suffice (for Combat Sense or Increase Reflexes), and you could instead go for an extra point of Magic. That would be another Edge hit, but good for your character concept, in my opinion. It would give you another available Qi point, another die for casting (and summoning), another die for those spells of yours to resist counterspelling, and another die for you, your foci and spells to press through astral barriers, making it very useful to you.

If you want to go even further with the Increase Attribute spells (You already have three, four if you go with Increase Reflexes) you can add things like Heal and Stabilize and pick up a health spell specialization to get more dice on those spells. Note that your sustaining focuses have to match spell type, so in a pinch, you can use your rating 1 heath sustaining focus to sustain your Force 1 Heal + reagents.

Other tricks? Maybe get the Mystic Armor adept power and the Armor spell (Force 1 + reagents + second chance + Aid Sorcery if you want) to stack with your armor jacket. Why not throw in an Increase Attribute (Body) in for good measure? And a helmet or a riot shield. Heck, why not 14 points of Mystic Armor? Why are you looking at me like that?

For that last one, maybe pick dwarf and dump Edge. You get -1 Reaction, but + 2 Body, +1 Willpower, and thermographic vision. But yeah, the Reaction and Edge is probably way more valuable to you.