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> What happens if physical damage also causes stun damage?
PriorityKarmaGen
post Aug 22 2013, 09:22 PM
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Proposed houserule: every point of physical damage taken also deals 1 point of stun damage. The stun condition monitor is now 8 + (Body + Willpower)/2. This does not apply for physical damage caused by stun damage overflowing the stun condition monitor. Optionally, dice penalties from damage can be no longer cumulative -- only the higher of the stun or physical tracks apply.

The goal is to avoid the situation where a punch would have knocked someone out (the target had taken lots of stun damage), but because the attacker had bone lacings, it doesn't in fact knock the person out. Alternatively, Tanky McTank took a bunch of stun damage and but no physical damage, so he takes off some of his armor so he'll take physical damage from the bullets. Not only is this annoying from a gaming perspective, it's also tough to wrap my head around from a realism perspective. If the trauma of a normal punch is enough to knock you out, the trauma from a harder punch should also be enough to knock you out, no?

Other effects of this change:

Stun damage is slightly worse since people will have more boxes on the stun track. Combat with only stun damage will last a bit longer.

Physical damage is a bit better. It becomes a lot better if dice penalties are cumulative across tracks.

Armor and armor penetration becomes much more important.

Body is slightly better now. Tanks wouldn't need a high Willpower for their condition monitor, but it's still useful for other things.

Split the damage called shot would need to be reworked somehow.

Anything else? Is there any reason why this would be an awful idea?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 22 2013, 09:50 PM
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Dice Penalties ARE Cumulative across tracks... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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PriorityKarmaGen
post Aug 22 2013, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 22 2013, 10:50 PM) *
Dice Penalties ARE Cumulative across tracks... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Right, I was thinking optionally they could be made not cumulative under this rule change. Otherwise, physical damage would basically create double the dice penalty. On the other hand, some may think that's a feature and not a bug (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .
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KCKitsune
post Aug 22 2013, 11:33 PM
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Sorry to hijack this thread, but what happens if a 'Runner with a shock hand built into his cyberhand punches you? Does that cause physical damage (because of the cyberhand) AND stun damage because of the shock hand? I would think it would do so, but I would like everyone's opinion.

Thanks in advance and to the OP... sorry for 'jacking your thread.
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Dolanar
post Aug 23 2013, 12:16 AM
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actually, the shock hand is usually made with the receptors on the palm of the hand I believe, so a punch would do normal damage for whatever fist you use unless you grasped them with your palm, then you'd do shock damage.
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phlapjack77
post Aug 23 2013, 12:24 AM
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QUOTE (PriorityKarmaGen @ Aug 23 2013, 05:22 AM) *
Proposed houserule: every point of physical damage taken also deals 1 point of stun damage. The stun condition monitor is now 8 + (Body + Willpower)/2. This does not apply for physical damage caused by stun damage overflowing the stun condition monitor. Optionally, dice penalties from damage can be no longer cumulative -- only the higher of the stun or physical tracks apply.

I think something like this has been proposed before, but with 2 physical = 1 stun. Penalties from both tracks apply.

If you're looking to change damage tracking, I would go with the above, or with the (oWoD?) way where every damage box can be filled in with one line or two. One line for stun damage, 2 lines for physical damage, it takes 2 lines to fill a box. So both damage types share the same track. I guess the damage track would need to be a little longer in this case...
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Garvel
post Aug 23 2013, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE (Dolanar @ Aug 23 2013, 12:16 AM) *
actually, the shock hand is usually made with the receptors on the palm of the hand I believe, so a punch would do normal damage for whatever fist you use unless you grasped them with your palm, then you'd do shock damage.

SR Unarmed Combat doesn't differentiate punches from palm strikes in meele, so that explanation wont work.
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Dolanar
post Aug 23 2013, 02:53 AM
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no, but I can think of no instance in 4a or 5 where 2 damage types were allowed at the same time, if you are using the Electricity is usurps the damage type making it stun, if you use your fist without the electricity you do Physical (assuming your fist is capable of Physical) so making Physical & Electricity is by the rules impossible.
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kerbarian
post Aug 23 2013, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Aug 22 2013, 03:33 PM) *
Sorry to hijack this thread, but what happens if a 'Runner with a shock hand built into his cyberhand punches you? Does that cause physical damage (because of the cyberhand) AND stun damage because of the shock hand? I would think it would do so, but I would like everyone's opinion.

I think a good point of comparison is the stun baton. When you hit someone with it, it could theoretically do damage both as a club and due to electricity, but the damage listed is only electrical. So I think the intent is clear that you don't get to stack both sets of damage with a stun baton, and I'd go with the same thing for punching with a shock hand.

For an in-game explanation, I'd say that when you're trying to do damage with a punch or baton, you're going for a sharp impact. When you're trying to shock someone, you instead want sustained contact, and you can't effectively do both things with the same strike.
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DMiller
post Aug 23 2013, 04:24 AM
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QUOTE (kerbarian @ Aug 23 2013, 12:00 PM) *
For an in-game explanation, I'd say that when you're trying to do damage with a punch or baton, you're going for a sharp impact. When you're trying to shock someone, you instead want sustained contact, and you can't effectively do both things with the same strike.

This.

Electricity damage from shock weapons tends to be a more sustained hit rather than blunt-force-trauma. If you are trying for blunt-force the hit is fast and you disconnect from the target before an effective electrical connection can be made whereas if you are trying for electrical damage you are trying for a longer duration connection, not worrying so much about hitting hard, just long.
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Draco18s
post Aug 23 2013, 01:39 PM
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QUOTE (DMiller @ Aug 22 2013, 11:24 PM) *
This.

Electricity damage from shock weapons tends to be a more sustained hit rather than blunt-force-trauma. If you are trying for blunt-force the hit is fast and you disconnect from the target before an effective electrical connection can be made whereas if you are trying for electrical damage you are trying for a longer duration connection, not worrying so much about hitting hard, just long.


Fine, I bean a guy in the head with a 0.5-second delay impact-triggered grenade.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 23 2013, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 23 2013, 07:39 AM) *
Fine, I bean a guy in the head with a 0.5-second delay impact-triggered grenade.


Sucks to be him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Draco18s
post Aug 23 2013, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 23 2013, 10:27 AM) *
Sucks to be him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Except the rules say it doesn't work. Even if I get 5 net hits on throwing a grenade (enough to clearly peg someone), the grenade can still end up as far away as 7 meters from the guy (almost far enough that he doesn't need to roll damage resistance).
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thorya
post Aug 23 2013, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 23 2013, 11:46 AM) *
Except the rules say it doesn't work. Even if I get 5 net hits on throwing a grenade (enough to clearly peg someone), the grenade can still end up as far away as 7 meters from the guy (almost far enough that he doesn't need to roll damage resistance).


Actually the grenade bouncing off of someones head and rolling away is maybe the best explanation I've heard for the horrible scatter on grenades.
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Draco18s
post Aug 23 2013, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (thorya @ Aug 23 2013, 10:55 AM) *
Actually the grenade bouncing off of someones head and rolling away is maybe the best explanation I've heard for the horrible scatter on grenades.


7 meters in the aforementioned delay period means that it bounces off the guy's head with a velocity of about 30 miles per hour.

Doing a little research, this is not unreasonable.

Lets turn our delay down to 0.1 seconds instead.

Rules still indicate that the grenade can end up as far away as 7 meters.

Now the grenade is moving in excess of 150 mph, which is faster than professional fast ball pitchers pitch their fastest fast balls.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 23 2013, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 23 2013, 09:46 AM) *
Except the rules say it doesn't work. Even if I get 5 net hits on throwing a grenade (enough to clearly peg someone), the grenade can still end up as far away as 7 meters from the guy (almost far enough that he doesn't need to roll damage resistance).


Apparently he is not as accurate as he thinks he is, then. As for using a Contact Fuse, well, if you hit, there is no scatter at that point. *shrug* Mush cof hte issue is that CGL has no clue how stuff like that actually works. And evcen if they did, beaning someone with an instant death package is generally no fun, thus the rules that are in the book concermning scatter. IRL, Such devices do not scatter nearly as much as people think they do (Imagine a Footbal scattering like the scatter rules indicate it should).
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KCKitsune
post Aug 23 2013, 04:34 PM
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The reason I was bringing this up is that I was writing a story and I had the character with the shock hand punching his male opponent in the groin with said hand.
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Draco18s
post Aug 23 2013, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 23 2013, 11:15 AM) *
Apparently he is not as accurate as he thinks he is, then.


Actually, he is. Think about it. How many net hits does it take to bean a guy with a thrown object?

1.

How many net hits does it take for a grenade to have 0 meters of maximum scatter?

6 (depending on grenade type, etc. etc.)

QUOTE
beaning someone with an instant death package is generally no fun


Well obviously. The problem is that it's so much easier to kill someone with something else. The same number of net hits with an assault rifle will almost always down someone. Which is why my suggested rule is that everyone caught in the blast radius of an explosive gets a dodge roll to move out of the way or behind cover.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 23 2013, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 23 2013, 11:44 AM) *
Actually, he is. Think about it. How many net hits does it take to bean a guy with a thrown object? 1.

How many net hits does it take for a grenade to have 0 meters of maximum scatter? 6 (depending on grenade type, etc. etc.).

Well obviously. The problem is that it's so much easier to kill someone with something else. The same number of net hits with an assault rifle will almost always down someone. Which is why my suggested rule is that everyone caught in the blast radius of an explosive gets a dodge roll to move out of the way or behind cover.


Yeah, I know... And I prefer Direct fire rules for stuff like that anyways, allowing people to dodge if they are able. That way, a Hit IS A HIT. I mean really, it is not all that hard to throw a grenade accurately, and is no more difficult to use than a Baseball is.

But, many others complain that the wages of Sin ISN't Death, and therefore it is not fun to be targeted by such devices. The US Marine in me does not care about that argument, though. Military Grade Weapons SHOULD Be fraggin' Deadly. *sigh*
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Draco18s
post Aug 23 2013, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 23 2013, 12:55 PM) *
But, many others complain that the wages of Sin ISN't Death, and therefore it is not fun to be targeted by such devices. The US Marine in me does not care about that argument, though. Military Grade Weapons SHOULD Be fraggin' Deadly. *sigh*


They're also way less lethal in real life, as most of the shrapnel goes up. Or up-ish. Laying prone only 4 feet away tends to be safer than standing at 15.*

*Note: bullshit numbers. I'm a programmer by trade and have never directly handled any kind of explosive.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 23 2013, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 23 2013, 12:02 PM) *
They're also way less lethal in real life, as most of the shrapnel goes up. Or up-ish. Laying prone only 4 feet away tends to be safer than standing at 15.*

*Note: bullshit numbers. I'm a programmer by trade and have never directly handled any kind of explosive.


They are indeed a bit less lethal/more lethal than modeled, depending upon circumstance. That does not bother me nearly as much for grenades, but Bombs/Mortars/Missiles/Rockets and Mines are stupid deadly, and yet are imminently survivable in game. Irritates me a bit.
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Draco18s
post Aug 23 2013, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 23 2013, 01:27 PM) *
They are indeed a bit less lethal/more lethal than modeled, depending upon circumstance. That does not bother me nearly as much for grenades, but Bombs/Mortars/Missiles/Rockets and Mines are stupid deadly, and yet are imminently survivable in game. Irritates me a bit.


Mm. Mm. *Nod*
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HugeC
post Aug 23 2013, 07:12 PM
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I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried a house rule with a single damage track for both stun and physical. I brought this up when I first started getting into SR4 due to the wonkiness of cyborgs getting all these extra boxes on their physical damage track, but then never using them since their armor was so high.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 23 2013, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (HugeC @ Aug 23 2013, 01:12 PM) *
I'd be interested to hear if anyone has tried a house rule with a single damage track for both stun and physical. I brought this up when I first started getting into SR4 due to the wonkiness of cyborgs getting all these extra boxes on their physical damage track, but then never using them since their armor was so high.


My Guy used his 11 Stun and his 19 Physical... Besides, that is what a Pain Editor is for.
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Dolanar
post Aug 24 2013, 10:50 AM
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As has been mentioned the best way to handle a single damage track, IMO, is to use a similar model as is used in WoD games. A single track, you use X's to block the boxes, Stun does / for each damage done, & Physical does X for each done, give it maybe a 10+bod/2 total track.

Example: I take 3 Stun damage after resist so I mark down X / as my total damage, 1 box & a half of the second, then I take 2 Physical on the next attack I am now at X X X / & have now taken my -1 penalty to my rolls, next attack is 5 Stun, totaling me at XXXXXX & now at a -2 penalty.
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