Why is a Corporate SIN such a bad thing, anyway? Options

[Falconer]

Pretty much it TJ....

That's why I don't get Bulls bit at all... someone takes a 5karma sinner quality... (even less points than the old version at 5BP == 10 karma). And it's a huge problem so he's out to dock them 10% of their pay in missions?!

Yet if I take the full -25 corp sin... I pay the same 10% and don't really suffer any other penalties in game for the most part. Really in missions... can you see people outright killing characters because they have a corp SIN? I've never seen it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Pretty much it TJ....

That's why I don't get Bulls bit at all... someone takes a 5karma sinner quality... (even less points than the old version at 5BP == 10 karma). And it's a huge problem so he's out to dock them 10% of their pay in missions?!

Yet if I take the full -25 corp sin... I pay the same 10% and don't really suffer any other penalties in game for the most part. Really in missions... can you see people outright killing characters because they have a corp SIN? I've never seen it.

Indeed, I have never seen it. Even with my Corporate Undercover Investigator, creating Dossiers on the Shadowrunners of Hong Kong (and the Surrounding Asian States), The Character was still not in danger of losing his life (though he had made a few enemies, and was on a few lists). Might be because he was very good at covering his tracks (and no one was positive I was the culprit - Was pretty good at diverting suspicion too), or because it was not that big of a deal. Not sure which. Though he was not completely trusted (by his own team) after the reveal that he had been an undercover Knight Errant Investigator. Though in SR4A, SINner was only worth 5 points, and I never actually had the Judas or Deep Cover Qualities (they were not really necessary).

The Taxes thing is just odd... and I agree... I just do not understand Bull's stance.

[Jack VII]

I still think the Limited Corp SIN is even more weird. +15 karma, the text makes it sound like you still work for the Corp in question (with one line implying that you might not work for them anymore), and you pay 20% as opposed to 10% in taxes. Yeah...

Quick Fix: Roll 1D6 each time the team takes a job. On a 1, it's actually a setup meant to kill/capture the Corporate SINner and his associates. LOL

[SpellBinder]

1.) It's not and never has been in SR
2.) Shadowrunning is a cash-in-hand job yet the corps are still trace anything you earn and tax it. How exactly are you going to launder money under such an omniscient monitoring?

1: Yes it is.
2: Credsticks.

[DMiller]

Yes... For the characters that I play with multiple SIN's, if one gets burned, all things associated with it go away. This includes the money (not much) that I keep associated with that SIN. And yes, it is indeed more paperwork, but it is imminently satisfying, at least to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ditto for our group.

[Falconer]

It's actually kind of funny... my last missions character took knowledge finance and organized crime and the like specifically for money laundering operations.

Also, for turning corpscrip or registered nuyen into certified cred... there was often a 'fee' just like a money changer would charge. Or some kind of barter needed... turn your money into some kind of commodity... then trade that commodity for something else off the books.

[RHat]

1.) It's not and never has been in SR
2.) Shadowrunning is a cash-in-hand job yet the corps are still trace anything you earn and tax it. How exactly are you going to launder money under such an omniscient monitoring?

1) How in the hell would money laundering EVER go away? If anything, it would be bigger and more important.
2) Legitimate-looking infusion of cash to laundering operation followed by perfectly legitimate income to runner's account.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1: Yes it is.
2: Credsticks.

Certified Credtsicks... Which are Cash... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Thought certified was the only kind of credstick you could get in the civilized world, as of 2070, with everything that a regular credstick used to hold being dumped onto SR's equivalent of a cell phone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thought certified was the only kind of credstick you could get in the civilized world, as of 2070, with everything that a regular credstick used to hold being dumped onto SR's equivalent of a cell phone. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Nope... Certified Credsticks are for anonymous transactions.

[SpellBinder]

I know that, but what I'm trying to say is why would non-certified credsticks still be available when everything that a regular credstick used to do is now done with a commlink?

[Daedelus]

Id like to defend Bull's ruling by stating he made it specifically for the Missions campaign. His statement is not meant as a blanket SR5 ruling. the Organized Play model is ill equipped to handle things that require GM knowledge and upkeep when it comes to Drawbacks. His ruling keeps these qualities in play for the missions campaign without turning them into free points without any in game negative effects. Some missions judges will take these into account, but since you cannot control ALL judges there needs to be blanket effects for some things that are imposed by the campaign. This is one of those, and is one of the negative aspects of Organized Play campaigns.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I know that, but what I'm trying to say is why would non-certified credsticks still be available when everything that a regular credstick used to do is now done with a commlink?

Because not all banking is doen with a Comlink.
Even today, there are people who still go to the Bank and deposit/withdraw funds, and refuse to bank online.
So, standard Credsticks are still available for those people who do not want to take the risk of keeping all their financial information on their comlink. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

Maybe if you're in a feral city like Chicago. Previous material I've read suggests that regular credsticks have gone (or are going) the way of the dinosaur.

The only people I could see trying to use regular old credsticks are those of us that are alive now and might be lucky enough to survive the VITAS plagues to live into the 2070's. Not carrying a commlink runs the risk of you being accused of being a technomancer (They can use the matrix with their brains, so why would they carry one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) ).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe if you're in a feral city like Chicago. Previous material I've read suggests that regular credsticks have gone (or are going) the way of the dinosaur.

The only people I could see trying to use regular old credsticks are those of us that are alive now and might be lucky enough to survive the VITAS plagues to live into the 2070's. Not carrying a commlink runs the risk of you being accused of being a technomancer (They can use the matrix with their brains, so why would they carry one? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif) ).

I agree that regular Credsticks are phasing out of circulation. They are just not gone quite yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Just because you carry a comlink, that does not mean you bank wirelessly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Slacker]

I just thought of an alternate explanation of the income "tax" for corporate SINs...

If you still work for/with the company, it's a straight up tax. Seems reasonable that the megacorps would tax the wageslave with limited SINs more than their elite executives that were born into the upper ranks of the company, just one more perk of being a born 1 percenter.

However, if you have broken away from the company in some way, instead of an income tax that is being paid to the corp, the money is considered to be what you have to pay to continually have references to you wiped from databases, bribes to get people who recognize you to look the other way, etc. Like it's the minimum required to keep you off the megacorp's radar.

Given the surveillance of the 2070s, the megacorps are likely able to find you if they really want to. So trying to live a life outside of their control is definitely going to come at a cost.

With this explanation, the difference between Limited SIN's tax and full Corporate SIN's tax is that you still have family/colleagues that have enough good will/power to keep the corp from harassing you too much (though that is the limit of what they will do for you unless you also buy them as a contact). Limited Corp SINners don't have that level of ties to the higher ups, so they have to rely solely on what they can afford themselves.

[Voran]

Presumably its gotten to the point that if you're still using accounts associated with say the Corp SINner, they'll just autodeduct the 'appropriate amounts' at 'appropriate times'. Yknow, for your convenience. And by 'your convenience' I mean, FUCK YOU THAT'S WHY WAGESLAVE, KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

And I imagine its much harder to 'opt out' of stuff. Don't you remember the licensing agreement that you signed before you knew how to read which is totally valid under corp law under which this falls?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I just thought of an alternate explanation of the income "tax" for corporate SINs...

If you still work for/with the company, it's a straight up tax. Seems reasonable that the megacorps would tax the wageslave with limited SINs more than their elite executives that were born into the upper ranks of the company, just one more perk of being a born 1 percenter.

However, if you have broken away from the company in some way, instead of an income tax that is being paid to the corp, the money is considered to be what you have to pay to continually have references to you wiped from databases, bribes to get people who recognize you to look the other way, etc. Like it's the minimum required to keep you off the megacorp's radar.

Given the surveillance of the 2070s, the megacorps are likely able to find you if they really want to. So trying to live a life outside of their control is definitely going to come at a cost.

With this explanation, the difference between Limited SIN's tax and full Corporate SIN's tax is that you still have family/colleagues that have enough good will/power to keep the corp from harassing you too much (though that is the limit of what they will do for you unless you also buy them as a contact). Limited Corp SINners don't have that level of ties to the higher ups, so they have to rely solely on what they can afford themselves.

Corps are not going to spend the money to keep track of you if you are no longer their slave... waste of resources.

[Sengir]

1: Yes it is.
2: Credsticks.

1: [citation needed]
2: If credsticks and other kinds of cash-in-hand were untraceable, shadowrunners with a corporate SIN would not have to worry about taxation. Since any income you have is taxed...

[SpellBinder]

1: Unwired, pages 20 & 93; Spy Games, page 169; Vice, page 18 starts a section titled "Money Laundering", as well as pretty much in every entry on an organized crime syndicate and/or family.
2: Tax evasion is the least of any shadowrunner's worries.

[RHat]

Even today, there are people who sdtill go to the aBank and deposit/withdraw funds, and refuse to bank online.

Today, yes. By 2070? Highly unlikely.

[FuelDrop]

I have actually houseruled that ALL taxes are included in your lifestyle costs. I've also assumed that even fake SINs need to pay taxes or get investigated.

Basically, unless otherwise specified all runners launder their lifestyle money through their fixer and have jobs at Frontcompany Inc. which pays them a living wage, from which their taxes are payed. All nice and legal. Runners are trying to stay under the radar in their home lives, so paying taxes and having a regular job (at least on paper) is part of the whole deal.

Naturally, this means that of the money they're spending on lifestyle a bit goes to the tax man and a bit goes to the money launderer (generally via their fixer) but it doesn't really break the game and it makes some sense.

[Angelone]

Presumably its gotten to the point that if you're still using accounts associated with say the Corp SINner, they'll just autodeduct the 'appropriate amounts' at 'appropriate times'. Yknow, for your convenience. And by 'your convenience' I mean, FUCK YOU THAT'S WHY WAGESLAVE, KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!

And I imagine its much harder to 'opt out' of stuff. Don't you remember the licensing agreement that you signed before you knew how to read which is totally valid under corp law under which this falls?

I think someone has caught the correct.

[Critias]

Guys, it's not "Bull's" stance. Bull's the one that posted it (to clarify things for Missions), but it's not like he made the call.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Today, yes. By 2070? Highly unlikely.

And yet, even today, those of us who are not wireless are viewed as odd, yet it does not stop us... I really do not think that this will change in 60 years; as long as there is a market, it will exist, because someone will cater to it.