Why is a Corporate SIN such a bad thing, anyway? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Guys, it's not "Bull's" stance. Bull's the one that posted it (to clarify things for Missions), but it's not like he made the call.

Good Point... Apologies to Bull. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[RHat]

And yet, even today, those of us who are not wireless are viewed as odd, yet it does not stop us... I really do not think that this will change in 60 years; as long as there is a market, it will exist, because someone will cater to it.

If we're being realistic, people who take that sort of attitude towards this stuff are going to become rarer and rarer until the point comes where it simply isn't practical any more due to the implementations of these systems simply not supporting that kind of thing.

[Sendaz]

You will probably still see some banks offering a live person behind the counter, but you will pay for that service and it won't be common.

Banks have been cutting back on staff more and more, as well as charging for services in-bank to try and encourage more online/ ATM's out front of the bank transactions.

[SpellBinder]

You will probably still see some banks offering a live person behind the counter, but you will pay for that service and it won't be common.

Banks have been cutting back on staff more and more, as well as charging for services in-bank to try and encourage more online/ ATM's out front of the bank transactions.

I used to work for Bank Of America on their credit card accounts. There was (as of four years ago) an additional USD$5 surcharge for me to take a payment over the phone, while the automated system and online was free. Never had anyone happy about that surcharge.

[Shemhazai]

How about money transferred to a credstick gets taxed at the owner's income tax rate, and so does assigning a new SIN as the owner of a credstick? However, just passing a credstick that anybody can use doesn't get taxed.

[Rubic]

My first complete 5e build (likely to get a bit modded before any actual game play) is a full Corp SINner. Her corp KNOWS she runs; it's part of her job for them. She happily pays her taxes, as she generally believes in the common welfare promoted to those within her corp. Would she do a run "against" her corp? Probably, but she'd give her handler a heads up first (no offense to her team). She'd also try to steer them AWAY from her corp if at all possible. These situations are part of what can contribute to a 25 point Corp SINner's cost.

Just because you run the shadows doesn't mean you've actually left your corp (whether you realize it or not).

[Falconer]

Shem... you just don't get it.

The credstick is nothing but a Money-Access-Card... or a pre-paid VISA/MC. It's a card/stick linked to an escrow account in some off-shore datahaven with no name associated to it. There is no SIN associated with the credstick, there is no ownership except for who physically possesses it!

Whoever physically possesses the stick... possesses the cash in the account. That is why all of us are so flustered by this idiocy on the writers/devs part. (okay it's not Bull's fault... then it's all of their faults... thanks Critias).


If you're dumb enough to shift the money out of the certified cred account... and into your own taxed bank account then you deserve to get taxed to hell and thrown in the klink for evasion for sheer stupidity.

The last thing a runner should be doing is using money from his own accounts to directly pay some illegal fence. When the fuzz pulls the bank records for whatever reason... a payment to a known felon is going to go over like a lead balloon. So with the exception of some above board lifestyle expenditures to make the SIN look 'legit'. Almost no activity should go on it.


Rubic:
Sorry but that's one of the worst 'stories' I've heard to date.
The entire point of a shadowrunner is that they're 'nobodies'. That they're deniable assets not tied to a corp.
A deep cover agent is one thing... but someone who simply runs above board and puts their corp at risk doing so is something completely different.

[Rubic]

Shem... you just don't get it.

The credstick is nothing but a Money-Access-Card... or a pre-paid VISA/MC. It's a card/stick linked to an escrow account in some off-shore datahaven with no name associated to it. There is no SIN associated with the credstick, there is no ownership except for who physically possesses it!

Whoever physically possesses the stick... possesses the cash in the account. That is why all of us are so flustered by this idiocy on the writers/devs part. (okay it's not Bull's fault... then it's all of their faults... thanks Critias).


If you're dumb enough to shift the money out of the certified cred account... and into your own taxed bank account then you deserve to get taxed to hell and thrown in the klink for evasion for sheer stupidity.

The last thing a runner should be doing is using money from his own accounts to directly pay some illegal fence. When the fuzz pulls the bank records for whatever reason... a payment to a known felon is going to go over like a lead balloon. So with the exception of some above board lifestyle expenditures to make the SIN look 'legit'. Almost no activity should go on it.


Rubic:
Sorry but that's one of the worst 'stories' I've heard to date.
The entire point of a shadowrunner is that they're 'nobodies'. That they're deniable assets not tied to a corp.
A deep cover agent is one thing... but someone who simply runs above board and puts their corp at risk doing so is something completely different.

This isn't somebody who runs above board. Think of it as a corporate-trained deniable asset. If the runner gets burned, the corp could easily deny everything and shift all the blame onto the runner. "We try so hard to provide for our dedicated and loyal employees, and then we find that our effort and good will is taken advantage of by selfish individuals who can only bite the hand that raised and fed them! Boo, hoo! Take them away, officer, before my tears flood the basement and drown the undocumented corp-slaves I have hidden there making cheap knockoffs of competitor products." Spin, my friend, is a killer. Stay useful and don't blow dreck all over the corp, and they'll look the other way while you harvest talent and revenge for them in the darker places and the hallways of other corps. And for the love of ghost, DON'T go blasting your corp sin while you do it, or you'll be lucky if it's your FRIENDS that blow your brains out for it (mercy killing).

Edit: another way of looking at it is the corp saying, "All of your success is shared with us, all of your failures will be yours alone."

[Dolanar]

I think Rubic is talking about deniable assets the way the CIA has deniable assets in many shows, you're given some help, but should you get caught, we deny ever having helped you. It may not be an uncommon tactic for those runners who do work for the corps to have a corp runner forced to come along as an on the job asset, proprietary knowledge that may be needed on the run, but don't want it in the hands of a runner crew.

[Rubic]

I think Rubic is talking about deniable assets the way the CIA has deniable assets in many shows, you're given some help, but should you get caught, we deny ever having helped you. It may not be an uncommon tactic for those runners who do work for the corps to have a corp runner forced to come along as an on the job asset, proprietary knowledge that may be needed on the run, but don't want it in the hands of a runner crew.

That's exactly what I was going for, along the CIA section of your comment. Most Runners are closer to "Michael Weston" from Burn Notice, "contractors," rather than agents from Mission Impossible where failure means "disavowed." This character was just closer to "Mission Impossible," so as to switch things up. Failure will hit really hard, and successes will be at least slightly muted.

[Shemhazai]

The credstick is nothing but a Money-Access-Card... or a pre-paid VISA/MC. It's a card/stick linked to an escrow account in some off-shore datahaven with no name associated to it. There is no SIN associated with the credstick, there is no ownership except for who physically possesses it!

Whoever physically possesses the stick... possesses the cash in the account. That is why all of us are so flustered by this idiocy on the writers/devs part. (okay it's not Bull's fault... then it's all of their faults... thanks Critias).


If you're dumb enough to shift the money out of the certified cred account... and into your own taxed bank account then you deserve to get taxed to hell and thrown in the klink for evasion for sheer stupidity.

The last thing a runner should be doing is using money from his own accounts to directly pay some illegal fence. When the fuzz pulls the bank records for whatever reason... a payment to a known felon is going to go over like a lead balloon. So with the exception of some above board lifestyle expenditures to make the SIN look 'legit'. Almost no activity should go on it.

Even if all that credsticks are are glorified 20th century debit cards, those prepaid cards we use even today have fees that get directly subtracted from the money in them.

I can imagine certified credsticks would work without a SIN,Ootherwise what would the SINless use for money? For taxation purposes, hat raises the problem as to what rate to tax and possibly as to who receives the money (SIN issuing authority, nation, corp). In that case, those kinds of credsticks probably work much like you describe. Trying to tax them at variable rates (or at all) is probably a bad idea.

My thought was to not tax them at all when they change hands, but to possibly charge income tax when nuyen goes to some account attached to a SINner. There could even be a default rate for transferring money between "SINless" devices (who would be entitled to this money?), but the more I think about it, the act of actually certifying a credstick is probably much more involved than simply an encrypted money transfer, thus the device receiving the money wouldn't be certified, and thus not as much like cash, annnd... possibly subject to taxation. (Here we go again.)

Maybe this level of detail is too much for the majority of players.

[Shemhazai]

That's exactly what I was going for, along the CIA section of your comment. Most Runners are closer to "Michael Weston" from Burn Notice, "contractors," rather than agents from Mission Impossible where failure means "disavowed." This character was just closer to "Mission Impossible," so as to switch things up. Failure will hit really hard, and successes will be at least slightly muted.

I don't think your spin is worth 25 karma.

[Sendaz]

I don't think your spin is worth 25 karma.

Does it come with Psychotic gun-toting ex GF and boozer best buddy as part of the cost? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Having to stay with Mom alone should be worth 5-10. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How about money transferred to a credstick gets taxed at the owner's income tax rate, and so does assigning a new SIN as the owner of a credstick? However, just passing a credstick that anybody can use doesn't get taxed.

Why would you tax that. In theory, anything in your accounts have already been taxed, if they are legitimate accounts. Of course, there may be a fee with transferring Funds to a Certified Credstick, but it would not be a Tax. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dolanar]

SINless taxation would come from heavy sales taxes & the like, tax them by what they actually buy since you can't prove their income.

[Sengir]

1: Unwired, pages 20 & 93; Spy Games, page 169; Vice, page 18 starts a section titled "Money Laundering", as well as pretty much in every entry on an organized crime syndicate and/or family.
2: Tax evasion is the least of any shadowrunner's worries.

2: The whole point of this thread is that thanks to the 5th Edition rules, it has become a worry. All your income is taxed if you used to have a company SIN, despite runners usually being paid cash without invoice. "That was the intention of the flaw, so we'll stick with it.". Which is also why money laundering for big organizations is beside the point, it would need to be done for individuals.

[Shemhazai]

Why would you tax that. In theory, anything in your accounts have already been taxed, if they are legitimate accounts. Of course, there may be a fee with transferring Funds to a Certified Credstick, but it would not be a Tax. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My thought was that the taxation would automatically happen as soon as the money is transferred. When corporations start to claim that they can tax people, it could take various forms.

[RHat]

Why would you tax that.

Because money?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because money?

Baah... Money is overrated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Sendaz]

Money:

Wireless Bonus: May be spent (and taxed) as a Free Action

[FuelDrop]

So... If I'm getting this right, having a real SIN gets you taxed, but having a fake SIN does not and this doesn't generate suspicion.
Or you get taxed for each and every fake SIN you have, at which point most runners are completely screwed.

also, a 5 point negative quality that costs 15% of your income hurts bad, particularly with the newly increased Cyberware prices. Particularly when the 25 point variant only costs 10%. What if you're dual SINned (EG national (Aztlan) plus limited corporate (Aztechnology))? do you have to pay 35% of your income in tax? Again, why do fake SINs not incur tax?

It just raises too many questions...

[SpellBinder]

Maybe they do, and shadowrunners don't use one for more than a single fiscal year.

[Sendaz]

I suspect because the Real SIN has an actual place in the system and does get tallied by the government's/corp's tax office it is assigned to.

The fake SIN on the other hand is something that has been inserted into certain levels of the system to look legit and may or may not stand up to close inspection, because you might not be in the right datalist, one of these being the tax office perhaps.
Maybe the SIN was burned or of a dead person originally, so it's been listed as inactive. The tax office isn't going to try and collect taxes on a dead guy.... yet.

Rumours that the IRS is pushing for Shedim rights so they can change the old saying from 'Death & Taxes' to 'Just Taxes' is not as funny as you may first think.

But depending on where you are, the Dead guy SIN still gets to vote... welcome to Chicago. And that was tradition long before Shedim ever popped up.


Now someone lifts that discarded SIN and carefully reinserts it into the system with a few end runs around some parts of the system so it says you are who the Fake SIN says you are. But if you go for an in depth check, the fact that Fake SIN is invalid will pop up pretty fast.

[Rubic]

Does it come with Psychotic gun-toting ex GF and boozer best buddy as part of the cost? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Having to stay with Mom alone should be worth 5-10. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, those are separate, in the contacts section. And technically, my character would be the gun-toting ex xD

[Angelone]

OMG, I've been playing an elven Fiona, named Felicia, all this time and nobody told me.