Grappling & Spellcasting Options

[Sendaz]

Actually I just sited two rules. Both perception of magic and sorcery state there are gestures in most cases. A player would not be well within their rights to be upset because a GM interpreted those passages as requiring enough in the way of gestures to be stopped by a grapple. Unless something is specific in the rules, that is exactly what a GM is for interpreting those grey areas. And since it never says these gestures can be ignored by the mage whenever he wants or they are such small gestures they can not be restrained by things like grapples it is pretty much up to the GM to decide.

But Pg 280 for Sorcery says:

You only have to concentrate to cast a spell (emphasis mine), but your tradition probably has plenty of chanting,gestures, dancing, and other things to go along with it.

So it clearly states for this point that only the concentration is required and does not try to imply that the added gestures or chants even impact on this.

Now we could assign a penalty to the casting roll if someone were grappling a caster as it would certainly be an obstacle to clear thinking, but should not necessarily totally lock a caster down.

As for the mention on pg 279, it is a bit broad:

Sometimes it’s obvious through a magician’s gestures or incantations (magicians seen by non-Awakened people are sometimes
called “twitchy fingers”). Spirits sometimes cause the air to shimmer, even from astral space. People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area.

Certainly if the tradition holds with using chants or hand waving it will be noticeable but note that even for the psychic traditions where they don't move a muscle or say a word people still seem to be able to notice the stronger magics with no visual or audio cues required.

So while this helps detect the using of magic, that does not necessarily mean the spells need those gestures/chants to complete the spell, again metahumans have a tendancy to use tells, often subconsciously or as a trained behaviour from whoever taught them or they picked up along the way from watching too much Trideo.

Plus I imagine in the future magic splat books they will be bringing back Geasa and such, so if you make chants/hand waving a standard requirement now, that will be two less geasa to offer your casters down the road.

[Cain]

You can do that (what a waste)... Just do not expect to shoot an arrow AND cast spells at the same time. They are exclusive actions, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And they would not stack... Take aim and Shoot your arrow (and get no spell), or Center with your skill (You cannot take aim unfortunately, since aiming with spells is generally not effective) and use your spell (and get no Arrow). It is a waste to have Zen Archery for your Centering.

This was more effective for Adepts in the SR2-3 days, of course. Of course, the books listed this as a clear "Do Not Try To Pull This" trick, so I never actually saw someone try to do it in game.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yes if you ignore half the sentence it does make it easier. Your tradition probably has.... is still part of the sentence. Again since it is never detailed you can just drop your traditions trappings and it is never detailed what these gestures are it is a GM call.


While it is within the realms of magic to cast a spell with just concentration, usually you need X is how I read that sentence.

You read it as magic only needs concentration but out of habit some mages twiddle their fingers but they can choose not to when ever they want.

It is never detailed which way to read it is right, which puts it squarely in the GMs hands. And honestly why should something like this be detailed, this is so much more flavor of magic and setting choice than it is a game mechanic/balance choice and that being left vague and up to the table is good IMO.

[Sendaz]

As to why, it is because the OP was asking about a game mechanic whereby would grappling a caster stop them from completing a spell, which moves the issue of gestures/chants from flavour to mechanic.

Your statement that I ignored half the sentence is a bit misleading. The sentence stated what was required and then added on that some traditions may have functions to go along with it.

I could make something similar for shooting where it says, You only have to point your weapon at someone and pull the trigger to shoot at someone, but your combat instructor may have taught you to close one eye or stand in a particular stance before firing.

The first part is necessary to the actual firing of the weapon, the latter is just flavour (assuming you are not trying to use a scope or use the Take aim action, then the one eye thing IS a help.)

Perhaps it would have been better if the line had read as 'At the very least you have to concentrate to cast a spell and your individual traditions may also require chanting,gestures, dancing, and other things as well.'

This could go in for errata, because it will be a question asked at some tables and ideally you want a baseline for New GM to start from.

Plus we did mention that these issues will probably be resolved as Geasa in the magic splat books so players who want to have gestures and chants be integral to their casting will actually be able to integrate this into their traditions with the appropriate effects if the geasa is broken by interference.

That is the problem with a new book, only so much room to fit everything in, why oh why did they stop at just under 500 pages. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[RHat]

Actually I just sited two rules. Both perception of magic and sorcery state there are gestures in most cases. A player would not be well within their rights to be upset because a GM interpreted those passages as requiring enough in the way of gestures to be stopped by a grapple. Unless something is specific in the rules, that is exactly what a GM is for interpreting those grey areas. And since it never says these gestures can be ignored by the mage whenever he wants or they are such small gestures they can not be restrained by things like grapples it is pretty much up to the GM to decide.

Those passages, at no point, suggest that gestures are required - just that gestures are used in many cases. For that matter, the mere fact that it is most, and not all, establishes that gestures are not required for spellcasting. There is no grey area, because there is no suggestion of a requirement. In fact, page 279 explicitly states that you "don't necessarily need things like chants, elegant hand gestures, muttered curses, and a holistic philosophy" to work magic. It's suggested that it helps, mind you, but it is explicitly not required.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This was more effective for Adepts in the SR2-3 days, of course. Of course, the books listed this as a clear "Do Not Try To Pull This" trick, so I never actually saw someone try to do it in game.

Indeed... Me neither. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)