Potential "how it actually happened" Chargen - input desired Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And yet you bring your table up incessantly when being disrespectful to other people because they don't play the way you like. So I'll ask you one last time, do you have anything constructive to add?

Deadlands has random generation elements. There are rules to play D&D with a completely random build (and I have even played a game using one of these characters, she was awesome). Gamma world. Even more that have random NPC generation. It's not different than any game with pre-made characters that you play at a convention or for a one-shot. It is possible to roleplay without a point buy system.

I brought my opinion, which was asked for. And NOT ONCE did I mention the table I play at. I mentioned the rules and the ability to make a character within those rules. You (generic, as I do not remember if it was you, exactly) were the one throwing around my table preferences. *shrug*

Again... Elements... Shadowrun has Elements of Random (The Priority table is nothing BUT random, in my opinion). It is indeed possible to play without Point Buy, I do it in DnD all the time, and I never said it was impossible to do that. Again, you are putting words in my mouth that were not there.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The comparisons to other random character creation systems are not quite accurate, to me. The difference is that those systems still created random characters. This system seems to create random pedestrians.

Look, I've done games where character creation is more random, like D&D and the old Gamma World, and I know how fun and exhilarating the addition of that random element can be. And I can see the appeal of a variant game where the characters are average, everyday people who get suddenly uprooted from their lives and thrust into a dangerous environment, like Rock in Black Lagoon.

The trouble is, I have a hard time seeing how it could really work. I have played in too many games where my badass, optimized characters got shot to hell, or escaped by the skin of their teeth, or died gloriously (or ignominiously). So, great, you're a data entry clerk from Renraku who lost his job, and you're out on the mean streets with nothing but a datajack and a few middling computer (non-hacking) skills. So what do you do? What kind of "shadowrunning" jobs can this person do? How can he defend himself against even common muggers? Sure, the character will be a lot more fearful of challenges that shadowrunners take in stride, but is that a good thing, if you're planning on this guy eventually, somehow, becoming a shadowrunner? And having an entire group of similar randomly-rolled people would be even more difficult to have any kind of game with.

This... Entirely This...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For random-based games, I've been a fan of using one set of rolls for the whole team. Let everyone arrange 'em however they want to, but that gives a pretty level playing field, at least. In theory.

Interesting thought (All get the same dice rolls). We do something similar, but with static attributes, assigned where you want. All characters have the same array. The Array varies depending upon campaign. Mostly Different Table for DnD than for Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

well, since running is more or less turning to a life of crime, lets compare any of us as Joe Average, how many of us could say we could survive in the shadows if we needed to make money & this was the only option available to us? I personally might be able to become a hacker or something of the like, but I would need lots of training to do so. I would say it takes a certain type of personality to be able to run the shadows well & survive. Much like it takes a certain type of person to become a "good" modern day criminal who doesn't get caught.

After many years in the Marine Corps, I could make a passable Mercenary. Not real interested in it, mind you, but I could probably do all right.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree that the attributes actually seem to be too high. A GM rolled 3d6 and divided by 3 (rounded down) to determine random attributes for random passer-bys then apply race modifier. That gives about 3 on average and you don't need a table to check.

Unlike Traveller, I think, you should have more options and less stages:

Childhood: (choose or roll d6)

1-3: You went to school. -> roll Logic + Charisma [3], if you succeed you get 70 Karma to spend on school related skills and a degree; otherwise you get 40 Karma to spend on non-school related skills

4: Hang with a gang. -> roll Body+Str [3], if you succeed you get 40 Karma to spend on gang-related skills and 10 Karma for gang contacts and 50 000 Nuyen in loot (used quality only); otherwise you die

5: train with a mage -> roll Logic+Willpower [4] or Charisma+Willpower [4], if you succeed you get 40 Karma to spend on magic-related skills and Magic 1 as a magical type of your choice; otherwise you get Arcana 3 and 30 Karma to spend on whatever you like

6: survive in the wilderness -> roll Body + Reaction [4], if you succeed, you get Survival 4, Magic 1 as an Adept and 30 Karma to spend on non-interlectual skills, otherwise you die

Coming of age trauma: ...

Young adult: ...

You could always use the Stages of Dresden Files/Fate System...

High Concept...
Trouble...

Where did you come from?
What Shaped You?
What was your First Adventure (Initial days on the Streets)?
Whose Path have you crossed?
Who Else's path have you crossed.

Not a bad way to shape a character, and the results turn out pretty well, in my opinion.

[GloriousRuse]

The comparisons to other random character creation systems are not quite accurate, to me. The difference is that those systems still created random characters. This system seems to create random pedestrians.

Look, I've done games where character creation is more random, like D&D and the old Gamma World, and I know how fun and exhilarating the addition of that random element can be. And I can see the appeal of a variant game where the characters are average, everyday people who get suddenly uprooted from their lives and thrust into a dangerous environment, like Rock in Black Lagoon.

The trouble is, I have a hard time seeing how it could really work. I have played in too many games where my badass, optimized characters got shot to hell, or escaped by the skin of their teeth, or died gloriously (or ignominiously). So, great, you're a data entry clerk from Renraku who lost his job, and you're out on the mean streets with nothing but a datajack and a few middling computer (non-hacking) skills. So what do you do? What kind of "shadowrunning" jobs can this person do? How can he defend himself against even common muggers? Sure, the character will be a lot more fearful of challenges that shadowrunners take in stride, but is that a good thing, if you're planning on this guy eventually, somehow, becoming a shadowrunner? And having an entire group of similar randomly-rolled people would be even more difficult to have any kind of game with.

I think the glory would be that if you add a flexible skill and resource system, you can make schlubs...or shadowrunners...but with a canonically accurate basis for being. Not every sammie will be AGI 9-12, not every decker will be logic 8, and you may not have a single magical asset on your team. Your "Sammie" may have in fact started with averagish stats and just didn't have any other skillsets that promoted him beyond gunman. You may have to make do with what you have, and even outsource a bit.

Now, in that system, the GM owes a canonically accurate world. No HTR four combat turns after the shooting starts. No hood-rats throwing 15 dice with automatic weapons because otherwise, how would the players be challenged by my hood rats? Corp sec who decide, without once shooting at you, that the pay may not be worth this. It frees the GM form the tyranny of needing to generate an artificial challenge because the canonical world is now challenging enough. the KE shooting at with 10 dice on SA burst? That is now something that is a significant enough emotional event that the threat of the cyberzombie squad and two teams of Firewatch aren't needed to make it scary.

Likewise, it lets you trully appreciate the value of 'ware or magic. When you aren't the most naturally gifted people in the world, all of a sudden climbing a few attribute points is truly, personally, precious rather than a mere cost of entry to the profession that is apparently inhabited by Rhodes scholars, Olympic athletes, and professional politicians and actors.

[Dolanar]

likewise, the runner's should not expect to live in anything but a low lifestyle, medium maybe if they all live in one house together, they will barely make enough money to pay for the ammo they use, maybe 500nuyen/job 1000 if they are lucky. Because they are not able to handle the big nuyen jobs until they actually become well skilled & can handle the bigger nuyen jobs.

[toturi]

Likewise, it lets you trully appreciate the value of 'ware or magic. When you aren't the most naturally gifted people in the world, all of a sudden climbing a few attribute points is truly, personally, precious rather than a mere cost of entry to the profession that is apparently inhabited by Rhodes scholars, Olympic athletes, and professional politicians and actors.

It is apparently so because shadowrunning is a very Darwinian profession. If you aren't a Rhodes scholar, Olympic athlete, or professional politician or actor, you are likely to be dead or very new to the profession, in which case you will be dead in short order.

The GM does not need to generate an artificial challenge because the canonical world is challenging enough, even if you are a Rhodes scholar, Olympic athlete, or professional politician or actor because you cannot count on every dice roll to come up with an statistically average score. You will have bad dice rolls, and that is something that is a significant enough emotional event that the threat of the cyberzombie squad and two teams of Firewatch aren't needed to make it any scary.

Else you'd have to be lucky and roll statistically higher nearly every time to survive and succeed, you might have a canonically accurate world, but I'd be looking closely at your dice. And you could have also had a canonically accurate world, if as a GM, you did not feel the need to generate an artificial challenge.

[xsansara]

I get through life and I am not a Rhodes scholar. I would actually say, I am doing quite fine (unless you give me minus points for writing on fictive online boards). Great job, jumping up the career ladder, nice work-life balance, wonderful family, ... I really can't complain. (If I had to, I would moan the shoddy child care infrastructure, although I don't see how more dice would have helped there. More contacts maybe ... )

In SR4 and probably SR5, Edge and player wits are by far the most important factors for survival. Even really talented and gifted people screw up. Usually at higher stakes than normal people. Having a one-trick pony in SR can be great, if you control your tactical environment, but if the GM is trying to get you, you have no chance. The same is true for balanced characters, if a one-trick pony manages them to get into a contest on their terms, they are screwed.

But this being a game and not a life simulation, or even if this were a life simulation, the real question is: what kind of story do you want to tell? A bunch of under-appreciated genuises fighting against other under-appreciated geniuses or some "real" characters trying to somehow survive the shadows. Traveller character easily grow on you, not because they are exactly like you imagined, but because they are so relatable. Not so much an ideal version of yourself, but a role you can slip into.

[Dolanar]

But that is the problem, Regular people don't survive well in the shadows, just like regular people don't do well burglarizing random homes to make a quick buck, they get caught more quickly because they haven't the slightest clue how to get past the most basic security systems unless they have dealt with them on a regular basis. Anytime someone calls for random joes in a situation, I simply ask myself if I could perform the function they would ask of the random joe, if the answer is no, or I would need some sort of specialized training, then random joe can't do it either.

[xsansara]

Yeah, well that is why practically every Shadowrunner has some sort of spezialised training in their character story. Be that military, bodyguard, crime, security (private or public), Technical College, Martial Arts, wagemage, time spent in prison, whatever, ... Only some of the faces and the occasional mage are actual amateurs (and the TMs for some reason, but I guess being a TM makes sure you get to learn the skillz all by ithemselves).

On that note: I always wondered on how you get to be a fence or a fixer, but from a study I recently read, having an MBA or at least some accounting training certainly helps your income with that career. I here I thought those are just hard to get letters to put on a resume... But probably crime bosses read resumes as well. So, if you want to increase your chances to be a rich drug lord, you better finish high school and get a couple of years of college...

(The actual theory is that MBAs have to earn more in crime, otherwise they would go look for a better job in the regular economy. High education criminals are also the most likely to switch between criminal and regular careers. Surprisingly, the margin is often much lower than one would think with the added risks of going to prison, being shot by another gang and so on, but low level crack dealers rarely earn more than minimum wage, some even quite a bit less. I wonder how that compares to the danger premium on military jobs. Although my feeling is that the military pays quite bad, as well. At least here in Germany, they try to get you with free education and the fun to be had. This is kind of ridiculous, given that most education in Germany is free anyway. No denying the fun, though...)

[Sendaz]

The way I see it, alot of Fences often worked in Supplys for militaries or other item handling industries, some even having legitimate business like a small shop to start off with. Because they knew people or maybe someone came to them one time to offload something, they started a bit of business on the side. Word gets around and other people bring things in or come to them to find those hard to obtain items.

Fixers have to know people and be known, putting the right guy together with the right job so usually the Fixer themselves usually has some sort of experienced background. Again they probably were doing jobs themselves and needed an extra body so contacted some folk and got the job done. Next time there was work the pre-Johnson probably contacted the guy directly, leaving the team build to his discretion. Time goes by and they are starting to outsource the work itself, acting as the fixer.

[thorya]

But that is the problem, Regular people don't survive well in the shadows, just like regular people don't do well burglarizing random homes to make a quick buck, they get caught more quickly because they haven't the slightest clue how to get past the most basic security systems unless they have dealt with them on a regular basis. Anytime someone calls for random joes in a situation, I simply ask myself if I could perform the function they would ask of the random joe, if the answer is no, or I would need some sort of specialized training, then random joe can't do it either.

Actually, randomly burglarizing homes, especially in poorer neighborhoods is really easy. Less than 15% of them are solved. Even less for petty theft like stealing bicycles or shop lifting. And computer crime has become more common for low end criminals, including scams, identity theft and even stealing money from banks. You can find the information you need to deal with most basic security online with a little work and it's probably the same with the matrix. Regular people survive just fine in the shadows. They just aren't hitting big corporate targets. When you play with regular joes, you're changing the scope of the game. Your targets are smaller, your jobs pay less, you have to plan even more carefully, your contacts matter a lot, and plan B is not to just shoot everything you see. Death may be more likely, but isn't that the thrill of it? To live long enough that you have the skills to actually take on the bigger fish? No one deals drugs for the minimum wage or less. It's because they think they can make it to the top and become Tony Montana or Al Capone.

[GloriousRuse]

As Thorya aptly put it, not only do regular people do just fine in the shadows of a non-dystopian, non-balkanized, comparatively low key, non-augmented US of A. Often times it is people who you would genuinely consider to be BELOW average who are the gunmen, the burglars, the numbers guys, the drug dealers. Force of will and sociopathy, whether found internally or cultivated environmentally, are often the driving factors behind criminal activity.

Arguments aside, here is the new normal distribution centered on a 3 rather than a 3.5.

Roll stats (base + 2 used as the mean for a normal distribution with each point being a standard deviation)
Roll each stat using the following. Downshift 1 level if the racial max is less than 6:
1-6: Base (Human 1 - this is slightly higher as it accommodates for all the standard devs that would be below base with the new left skew)
7-31: Base + 1 (Human 2)
32-69: Base + 2 (Human 3)
70-94 : Base + 3 (Human 4)
94-98 : Base + 4 (Human 5)
99: Base + 6
00: Roll Again
IF 1-98: Base + 6
IF 99-00: Exceptional Attribute

[Shinobi Killfist]

Actually from the novels and source materials of the books, successful runners are usually not portrayed as peak of human perfection in attributes. They have skills and experience that make them successful. They are not perfect dude street sam, smartest person on the planet hermetic etc. Its just day to day experience in the shadows that help them get by. Yeah sure there are the dragon heart chronicles style novels out there but I don't think that is portrayed as the norm for successful runner. So average guy based rolls probably work well, you will get somewhat above average in a couple stats most likely and those will be your focus stats.

[toturi]

Actually from the novels and source materials of the books, successful runners are usually not portrayed as peak of human perfection in attributes. They have skills and experience that make them successful. They are not perfect dude street sam, smartest person on the planet hermetic etc. Its just day to day experience in the shadows that help them get by. Yeah sure there are the dragon heart chronicles style novels out there but I don't think that is portrayed as the norm for successful runner. So average guy based rolls probably work well, you will get somewhat above average in a couple stats most likely and those will be your focus stats.

They are not usually portrayed as the peak of human perfection. They are often portray as a cut (or several) above the usual. They are either talented, skillful and/or highly experienced. They are not perfect street sams, the best at what they do, but they are often protrayed to be not far behind and a step above the "usual" runners. When it comes to crunch time, it is not just their day to day experience that help them to get by, they have the edge, that's why they are successful. Dragon heart style novels portray the norm for successful prime runners.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think the glory would be that if you add a flexible skill and resource system, you can make schlubs...or shadowrunners...but with a canonically accurate basis for being. Not every sammie will be AGI 9-12, not every decker will be logic 8, and you may not have a single magical asset on your team. Your "Sammie" may have in fact started with averagish stats and just didn't have any other skillsets that promoted him beyond gunman. You may have to make do with what you have, and even outsource a bit.

Now, in that system, the GM owes a canonically accurate world. No HTR four combat turns after the shooting starts. No hood-rats throwing 15 dice with automatic weapons because otherwise, how would the players be challenged by my hood rats? Corp sec who decide, without once shooting at you, that the pay may not be worth this. It frees the GM form the tyranny of needing to generate an artificial challenge because the canonical world is now challenging enough. the KE shooting at with 10 dice on SA burst? That is now something that is a significant enough emotional event that the threat of the cyberzombie squad and two teams of Firewatch aren't needed to make it scary.

Likewise, it lets you trully appreciate the value of 'ware or magic. When you aren't the most naturally gifted people in the world, all of a sudden climbing a few attribute points is truly, personally, precious rather than a mere cost of entry to the profession that is apparently inhabited by Rhodes scholars, Olympic athletes, and professional politicians and actors.

And I will ask once again... What is stopping you from that in the Basic Rules? As a GM, you have the power to enforce that vision. Truly, I am curious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Epic/Maxed out characters are not necessary in Shadowrun, to be sure, and I prefer the middle line (slightly above average Joe) with a lot of room to grow, myself. I like to hit Prime Runner at about the 250 Karma Mark. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Of course, Toturi and Thorya say it better a few posts above...

[Lantzer]

Dragon heart style novels portray the norm for successful prime runners.

Key words worth noting:

Successful Prime Runners.

How much of the shadowrunner population is that, I'm vaguely curious. I'd assume not a very big percentage, myself. I expect a lot more shmoes who work the lower end of the business. You know, clearing apartment blocks for the corps, getting murdered by bird-themed revenants and the like.

When I think of an "average shadowrun team" I think of that criminal gang hired by the crime lord in "The Crow". They were a highly successful dirty jobs team in the shadows, but nobody on dumpshock would consider them top of the line professionals. They consisted of a knife-man (Tin-tin), a seriously addicted gunman (Fun-boy), the arsonist team leader(T-bird), and his idiot brother (Skank). The only one of them remotely professional was the team leader, mostly because he was organized, businesslike, followed orders, and could keep his team in line.

The closest thing to a prime runner in the movie was the crime lord's bodyguard/enforcer. He was professional, methodical, & loyal. The crime lord was basically a fixer.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Key words worth noting:

Successful Prime Runners.

How much of the shadowrunner population is that, I'm vaguely curious. I'd assume not a very big percentage, myself. I expect a lot more shmoes who work the lower end of the business. You know, clearing apartment blocks for the corps, getting murdered by bird-themed revenants and the like.

When I think of an "average shadowrun team" I think of that criminal gang hired by the crime lord in "The Crow". They were a highly successful dirty jobs team in the shadows, but nobody on dumpshock would consider them top of the line professionals. They consisted of a knife-man (Tin-tin), a seriously addicted gunman (Fun-boy), the arsonist team leader(T-bird), and his idiot brother (Skank). The only one of them remotely professional was the team leader, mostly because he was organized, businesslike, followed orders, and could keep his team in line.

The closest thing to a prime runner in the movie was the crime lord's bodyguard/enforcer. He was professional, methodical, & loyal. The crime lord was basically a fixer.

Sounds like a perfectly fine example of a Shadowrun team to me. And you are right... They are not top of the line professionals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[GloriousRuse]

Tynaeus..yes, you could. You could set avail limits, and try to limit magic, and skill caps, and see how the whole race thing falls in. And you can stand on the lonely wall of GMery vs power creep. It can, indeed, be done.

And maybe..just maybe...if you get that group of players who all know each other, agree on the limitations of being canonically reasonable, trust the GM not to screw them, and won't deliberately try to max themselves within the new constraints to create characters which create over match so they can just go about secure in their safety, and then the GM stands benignly above it all walking the fine line between holding his vision and being an obstruction, OH and you get people over their magic fixation...you could swing it.

But, for everyone else, sometimes the enforcement of impartially conforming to reality is a nice touch. And so we have this.

[Lantzer]

I was thinking of another movie with shadowrunners:

The Mummy Returns.

That gang hired by the cultists to retreive the box with the jars is a sort of victorian shadowrun team. One leader, one local muscle, one idiot brother (again).

The prime runner here would be Our Hero. He's gone legit, of course, and become a family man... but he's the same guy who in the first movie was being put to death for having "a very good time".

[Lantzer]

More on the original topic, I don't have a problem with the set-up, but if I were trying something similiar, I'd find a way of inserting some meaningful choices in the path. My fondness for lifepath systems lies in the fact that it usually IS a path, rather than just a random character. Some randomness is fine, because stuff happens. But there should be some choices that help shape the character.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tynaeus..yes, you could. You could set avail limits, and try to limit magic, and skill caps, and see how the whole race thing falls in. And you can stand on the lonely wall of GMery vs power creep. It can, indeed, be done.

And maybe..just maybe...if you get that group of players who all know each other, agree on the limitations of being canonically reasonable, trust the GM not to screw them, and won't deliberately try to max themselves within the new constraints to create characters which create over match so they can just go about secure in their safety, and then the GM stands benignly above it all walking the fine line between holding his vision and being an obstruction, OH and you get people over their magic fixation...you could swing it.

But, for everyone else, sometimes the enforcement of impartially conforming to reality is a nice touch. And so we have this.

One quick observation... If your players cannot trust the GM, why are they even playing. Honestly, if that litmus test fails, then why is the GM running the game in the first place? It will be an antagonistic experience, from the start, that can only end badly... Of course, if there is a lack of trust, nothing you do to the system will actually matter, as there will continue to be an antagonistic relationship between the players and the GM.

And again, all the things you suggest are not necessary, except for the agreement on the canonical elements of the game. Once that has been obtained, then nothing else needs changing at all. Players will not make monstrous characters, because there is no need for such things... GM's will not feel pressured to create "unrealistic" encounters to compensate, and the entire "Us vs. Them" mentality disappears. You are right, though... The Players and GM have to trust each other for it to work.

I completely disagree that it requires exceptional players to achieve such an experience.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

More on the original topic, I don't have a problem with the set-up, but if I were trying something similiar, I'd find a way of inserting some meaningful choices in the path. My fondness for lifepath systems lies in the fact that it usually IS a path, rather than just a random character. Some randomness is fine, because stuff happens. But there should be some choices that help shape the character.

I have to agree here. My biggest issue with the suggestion is that it is trying to be promoted as completely Random. And that really does not work. There MUST be choice to create meaningful "relationships" amongst the happenstance of the "Random" Rolls. Without that, it is not a character, but a sheet of stats, with no life at all, and no real manner of linking the rolls together in a way that makes any logical sense. Yes... a Path is just that... A PATH, that the character follows while he develops.

Don't know if that really makes any sense (been a long couple of days), but there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[GloriousRuse]

I will admit my SR experience is exclusively internet based. In the flesh, maybe there is a greater level of rapport. However, lots of internet games are basically open recruitment. And while you might trust the GM, in that situation most players tend to revert to "I better build a small bit of a monster..just in case..."