Acceptable spirits to bind, some spirits are more equal than others Options

[shinryu]

with the more explicit connection of binding to slavery in 5th ed, there's an interesting question for traditions that have a more equitable outlook on spirits as to what spirits are acceptable to bind. for hermetics, even as of 3rd ed binding elementals was never really a moral problem since they were looked up on as mindless, alien, and possibly even just constructs of will. i would imagine that mentality holds among hermetics still. but for shamans and other traditions, what determines which spirits should be treated with respect and what spirits can be put to work in the fields (of security and mystical assistance)?

thoughts:

1) domains: would shamans be more likely to bind a spirit to do a task it is aspected to in terms of spell type? is is more ok to bind a water spirit to watch a coastal facility rather than a smelting plant?

2) "evil" spirits: it's pretty traditional even for hermetics (if we want to go all king solomon here) to bind evil spirits to do things, and i can see how there are probably equivalents in other traditions; nothing hops to mind for the native americans, but kitsune, gaki and some of the oni-associated kami would seem like they'd be ok to shackle to a "good" purpose for a shinto priest. it's hard to define this sort of thing in terms of elements, though, and especially through different traditions; combat spirits seem the most likely to be "evil" as such, but i can't really see beast spirits being, well, bestial as qualifying as evil or worthy of enslavement to most nature-aspected traditions.

3) mechanically, should this have any effect? if a summoner sticks to enslaving and draining the force out of a fire gaki because he earnestly believes he's purging its shitty karma, does that mean he's cool with the rest of the spirit world? or are these distinctions entirely human constructs that don't mirror the reality of spirits at all? either way is interesting, actually, but even if the traditions are wrong about things it's a good thing to know what a given mage might do wrong since he thinks it's right. or vice versa.

[Jhaiisiin]

Flavor wise, yes, absolutely that all matters. Mechanically, not so much. If you want to grant minor "aspected" bonuses based on where the spirit is being summoned and if it's something that would naturally like that area, then go right ahead.

[Shemhazai]

I think that binding being tantamount to a form of slavery is unimaginative and no fun to play.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that binding being tantamount to a form of slavery is unimaginative and no fun to play.

And I think that it all depends upon Tradition, too... Tradition informs a great many aspects in a character's Magical pursuits. I understand that in the UMT, much of the burden for fluffing this aspect of the game falls upon the GM or Players, but it should be an integral part of a Magician and his daily life. Sadly, few people truly care, as they tend to boil it down to the Spirits they can summon and their Drain Stats. A Magical Tradition is so much more than that, though, and it brings a great deal to a game when those Traditions are portrayed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sendaz]

And I think that it all depends upon Tradition, too... Tradition informs a great many aspects in a character's Magical pursuits. I understand that in the UMT, much of the burden for fluffing this aspect of the game falls upon the GM or Players, but it should be an integral part of a Magician and his daily life. Sadly, few people truly care, as they tend to boil it down to the Spirits they can summon and their Drain Stats. A Magical Tradition is so much more than that, though, and it brings a great deal to a game when those Traditions are portrayed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

+1

[shinryu]

i totally agree a lot of this comes down to roleplaying, but there are mechanical issues that are interesting here that are worth exploring. it's potentially good roleplaying for that aforementioned japanese shaman to bind spirits that are karmically screwed and force them to expend their force on his spells as a way to hasten them along the wheel of karma to a better reincarnation, arguably, but it's also something the spirit world frowns upon. does he get a pass since he's doing what he thinks is right? do japanese spirits understand what he's doing but things out in puget sound think he's a spirit murderer? obviously the "bad" spirits probably put up a hell of a fight to avoid being bound but do karmically ok spirits understand he (probably) won't do that to them? there are situations where good roleplaying does screw you, but right now it's hard to know what those are. this is just the example that comes to mind.

i would also prefer there to be more depth to the binding experience, but right now there isn't much more than "enslave spirit, get services." you can explain away some of the difference between mages and shamans by assuming shamans are invoking pacts with their totems and their service to their totem basically entitles them to aid from their spirits. but it would be nice if you could actually have a quid pro quo setup for summoning or binding, either in terms of burning reagents (outside of the ones required for the magical lodge) or literally offering services to the spirit in return. temporary geasa would be interesting, such as say trading off a point of magic for each service or point of force of the spirit while it's manifest. that's probably extreme but something along those lines would be interesting.

[Shemhazai]

I don't like the overall feel of what you're proposing. It's very different from the rules.

However, I've had temporary reduction in Magic rating in relation to conjuring on my mind for a long time. I've come to think that it's mostly a bad idea. I'd like to hear your thoughts.