[X] My Assistant

[coolgrafix]

Started playing a mage in SR5 recently starting with more karma and credit than normal.

First session we played I was told that my centering dice (initiate grade + centering focus rating) could not exceed my magic attribute.

So, this meant that my rating 6 centering focus would only act as a rating 4 centering focus, since:

Initiate Grade: 2
Centering Focus: 6
Total: 8, exceeds Magic attribute by 2, thus nerfed to 6 total

I have a memory of finding this limitation in the book during the game session and believing it to be correct. But now I can find hide nor hair of such a restriction. Can someone point me to a page?

Thanks,
Brad

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Started playing a mage in SR5 recently starting with more karma and credit than normal.

First session we played I was told that my centering dice (initiate grade + centering focus rating) could not exceed my magic attribute.

So, this meant that my rating 6 centering focus would only act as a rating 4 centering focus, since:

Initiate Grade: 2
Centering Focus: 6
Total: 8, exceeds Magic attribute by 2, thus nerfed to 6 total

I have a memory of finding this limitation in the book during the game session and believing it to be correct. But now I can find hide nor hair of such a restriction. Can someone point me to a page?

Thanks,
Brad

Well, that sucks... More and More, I think that 5th Edition is a no-go for me. Sad, really. I had such high hopes.

[Jaid]

i have no memory of such a limitation, and couldn't find one in the books with a quick search. you sure it's there?

[DMK]

I can't find a direct reference, but the limitation does make logical sense. The writeup on Metamagic Foci says that the Centering Focus adds its Force to your Initiate Grade when you use it. The section on Initiation says that your Initiate Grade cannot be greater then your Magic Attribute. Hence, the way Centering Focus is written strongly suggests that you can only get a bonus = (Magic - Initiate Grade) when using it.

[SpellBinder]

Yeah, I've tried looking for a direct reference too, and couldn't find one. Would've been nice to have a clear statement (among a lot of other things).

Now if that's true for Centering foci, then the same's true for the Flexible Signature & Masking foci, as they're written the same way.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I can't find a direct reference, but the limitation does make logical sense. The writeup on Metamagic Foci says that the Centering Focus adds its Force to your Initiate Grade when you use it. The section on Initiation says that your Initiate Grade cannot be greater then your Magic Attribute. Hence, the way Centering Focus is written strongly suggests that you can only get a bonus = (Magic - Initiate Grade) when using it.

That would be an Illogical interpretation, actually. The more you initiate, the less useful a Centering Focus (Masking Focus, Flexible Signature Focus) would be. Which makes no logical sense. It ADDS its force to your Grade for additional Drain Dice. That is all it says. Yes, Initiate Grade cannot exceed Magic Rating, but the Initiate Grade does not increase with the Centering Foci. It adds DICE to Drain, and has no actual effect on your actual Grade. *shrug*

[SpellBinder]

Maybe if it had referenced "Dice Pool" instead of "Initiate Grade"?

Sadly I can see both sides of this, but I'm heavily in favor of using these foci like before: the focus adds its full rating.

[Slithery D]

Ambiguous wording like this is endemic; see the previous discussions of whether a Power Focus adds to your actual Magic rating (it really, really doesn't, people) or just dice to Magic tests.

I'd rule this the same way - no cap (except the normal foci caps related to max rating), you get the full dice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe if it had referenced "Dice Pool" instead of "Initiate Grade"?

Sadly I can see both sides of this, but I'm heavily in favor of using these foci like before: the focus adds its full rating.

Indeed... Except that you always added the Focus Rating to the Initiate Grade (Assuming you actually possessed the Metamagic of Centering) to assemble the additional Dice. I chalk it up to Poor Editing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Isath]

Well it does make sense. While your initiation grade rises, your magic does not (at least not by it self). Thus the power you can harness is limited. If you use the insights gained by initiation and develop your potential (magic), you can harness more power (including foci).

Or to put it another way... You may have to acutally get better at magic, to profit the most from your tools, beyond a certain point.

[coolgrafix]

Ok, so I found the reference I was looking for. Here are the relevant passages and locations:

Limits: “Your initiate grade can never exceed your Magic attribute.” --page 325

Centering: “A magician who learns to center has an easier time resisting Drain. Add a number of dice equal to your grade to all your Drain Resistance Tests.” --Page 325

Metamagic Foci: “Metamagic foci add their force to the magician’s initiate grade when using specific metamagics.” --Page 319

Centering Focus: “A centering focus adds its Force to the magician’s initiate grade when he uses centering metamagic on Drain Resistance Tests.” --Page 319

So, RAW seem to indicate your potential centering bonus to your Drain Resistance Pool is limited to your Magic attribute. But that doesn't scale. Consider the diminishing returns of centering foci at higher levels of initiation.

It only makes sense if you read it NOT as written. Instead, as someone pointed out above, it only makes sense that centering and centering foci do not add to your initiate grade, but rather to the Drain Resistance Pool itself.

[Jaid]

yeah, i guess now that you've pointed it out i can sorta look at it and see how someone could read that as being limited. but the thing is, it isn't actually increasing your initiate grade... it's just being added to the number. none of your other abilities that are based on initiate grade are modified in any way.

[coolgrafix]

I'm gonna go with pool increase rather than relative grade. That is, no cap.

Yay! My GM has chosen the side of reason, based in no small part on the contributors to this thread. Many thanks!