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> Character Creation and Initiation
PraetorGradivus
post Sep 2 2013, 01:44 AM
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Any remaining
Karma can now be invested
in smoothing out any rough
edges, picking up or improving
skills, buying additional
spells, acquiring bound spirits,
bonding foci to be used
at the start of the game, purchasing
contacts, etc.


Notice that ugly rules writing thing known as etc. at the end of the sentence.
Can you, assuming you have enough karma, initiate at character creation?

My gut feeling is no.
But gut feelings aside, what do you guys think?
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Tanegar
post Sep 2 2013, 01:56 AM
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The "etc." clearly indicates the list given is not exhaustive. GM's discretion, but I'd allow it with the caveat that you can't get discounts from ordeals or group initiation in chargen.
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SpellBinder
post Sep 2 2013, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 1 2013, 06:56 PM) *
The "etc." clearly indicates the list given is not exhaustive. GM's discretion, but I'd allow it with the caveat that you can't get discounts from ordeals or group initiation in chargen.
Easy enough as SR5 RAW has no such discounts. At least, not until a magic splat book is released.
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forgarn
post Sep 3 2013, 01:25 AM
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As there is nothing in the character creation that give the costs for initiating or that even lists it as a possibility, and with the fact that you have not been able to do it in any of the previous editions, I would say no and have not allowed it in a normal or street level game. A prime runner game would allow it because you are, after all, prime runners and you would be a fool to not have initiated by the time you hit that level of expertise.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 3 2013, 01:58 AM
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QUOTE (forgarn @ Sep 2 2013, 07:25 PM) *
As there is nothing in the character creation that give the costs for initiating or that even lists it as a possibility, and with the fact that you have not been able to do it in any of the previous editions, I would say no and have not allowed it in a normal or street level game. A prime runner game would allow it because you are, after all, prime runners and you would be a fool to not have initiated by the time you hit that level of expertise.


However, the relevant Magic Chapter tells you EXACTLY how much initiation costs. And since there is a Karma Phase of Character Generation, and Initiation costs Karma, it is not unreasonable to ask if one can initiate in Character Generation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tanegar
post Sep 3 2013, 02:47 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 2 2013, 09:58 PM) *
However, the relevant Magic Chapter tells you EXACTLY how much initiation costs. And since there is a Karma Phase of Character Generation, and Initiation costs Karma, it is not unreasonable to ask if one can initiate in Character Generation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thus, it's neither explicitly permitted nor explicitly forbidden. Hence, GM's discretion.
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Isath
post Sep 3 2013, 05:29 AM
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SR5 is the implicit edition of sorts.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 3 2013, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE (Isath @ Sep 2 2013, 10:29 PM) *
SR5 is the implicit edition of sorts.


??? Implicit Edition?
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Dolanar
post Sep 3 2013, 01:13 PM
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most of the rules, kind of imply their meaning instead of outright saying it.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 3 2013, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 3 2013, 06:13 AM) *
most of the rules, kind of imply their meaning instead of outright saying it.


Ahhhh... Implied Rules... got it.
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forgarn
post Sep 3 2013, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 2 2013, 08:58 PM) *
However, the relevant Magic Chapter tells you EXACTLY how much initiation costs. And since there is a Karma Phase of Character Generation, and Initiation costs Karma, it is not unreasonable to ask if one can initiate in Character Generation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


That is true. however it is not listed in the chart of things you can spend karma on in the character generation portion. If you notice it is also listed in the table for character advancement (which shows that is can be taken in the character advancement stage) but nothing is listed in the character generation section.
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Chrome Head
post Sep 3 2013, 02:51 PM
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I think things are pretty complicated, so I went looking for further evidence.

First off, p. 98, quote from OP. Obviously, anything that is not disallowed becomes allowed by the "etc." But let's look deeper into this.

Just after that on page 98, it further states: "refer to the Additional Purchases and Restrictions table to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with Karma." This table doesn't include anything about initiation, which is strange, but just means there are no restrictions on buying initiation with karma.

Page 103: "Karma advancement works in much the same way you spent Karma at the end of character creation [...], but with one fundamental difference. When you create your character, it's assumed your character has taken the time needed to develop and improve whatever skills he possesses." It literally says, in the creating a shadowrunner section, that the two process work the same way with the exception you have to spend time training when it's done later within the game.

Section "Creating A Shadowrunner", page 107, Table "Character Improvement Table" lists a karma cost for initiating. Again, this is just after saying the two processes work in the same way.

This looks clear cut to me: RAW says you can initiate at char gen. That would be too easy, but wait!

page 98: "When spending Karma for attributes or skills, refer to the rules for improving the character in the Character Advancement section (p. 103)." Wait, what? You mean I don't refer to it for stuff that is not in that Additional Purchases & Restrictions table and that is not skills and attributes? But then again, they must just mean when you raise stuff in general, because they use the exact same phrase "raising skills and attributes" two sentences earlier, and clearly refer to more than just skills and attributes: "When raising skills and attributes, keep in mind the various restrictions of character creation: Only one attribute can be at the natural limit, and gear is restricted to items with Device Ratings of 6 or less or an Availability of 12 or less. These rules still apply to when you are spending Karma." Thanks I'll keep in the mind the gear restrictions when improving skills and attributes.

So now we are stuck between bad writing and more bad writing. As written, I argue that based on what I quote here, the rules clearly allow for initiation at char gen. It hurts our sensibilities (I'm not sure I'd allow it myself), which is why we're all like "hey it's ambiguous". Yes, it's ambiguous, but in a way that clearly allows it by pure RAW. Was it intended this way? Probably not, but blame the very unclear style of their rules writing.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 3 2013, 02:54 PM
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QUOTE (forgarn @ Sep 3 2013, 07:47 AM) *
That is true. however it is not listed in the chart of things you can spend karma on in the character generation portion. If you notice it is also listed in the table for character advancement (which shows that is can be taken in the character advancement stage) but nothing is listed in the character generation section.


I would interpret the quote in the OP to at least implicitly (if not explicitly) allow it (it is obviously not an exhaustive listing of things you can buy, due to the "etc." And Chrome Head does a good job of explaining it above), since it allows you to actually spend karma.
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forgarn
post Sep 3 2013, 03:29 PM
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Hence the reason that some GM's allow for it and some GM's do not (also based on the fact that in the previous editions it was not allowed). I am one that will not allow it in normal or street level games. However because of the level of experience in a prime runner level game I would allow it because you are building an advanced runner.

I agree that the writing is not very clear and in the previous editions it was specifically noted that you could not initiate at character creation.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 3 2013, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (forgarn @ Sep 3 2013, 08:29 AM) *
Hence the reason that some GM's allow for it and some GM's do not (also based on the fact that in the previous editions it was not allowed). I am one that will not allow it in normal or street level games. However because of the level of experience in a prime runner level game I would allow it because you are building an advanced runner.

I agree that the writing is not very clear and in the previous editions it was specifically noted that you could not initiate at character creation.


Too True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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paws2sky
post Sep 8 2013, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (PraetorGradivus @ Sep 1 2013, 09:44 PM) *
Notice that ugly rules writing thing known as etc. at the end of the sentence.
Can you, assuming you have enough karma, initiate at character creation?

My gut feeling is no.
But gut feelings aside, what do you guys think?


My initial reading of it was yes, you can initiate. In fact, I'd say you can do anything that isn't specifically banned with starting karma. (And that's why you should avoid using "etc.")

I recently spoke to a Missions GM and he said that you couldn't. I don't know if that's just a Missions thing or what.

If the answer really is no, then you can still try to save 7 karma and shoot for 6 karma in your first adventure or two pay for initiation.

-paws
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Dolanar
post Sep 8 2013, 08:18 PM
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Bull, I believe, called it out in his post about the temporary errata for missions stuff.
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grid.samurai
post Sep 8 2013, 08:47 PM
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I have never allowed it at character creation. For two reasons:

1) Runners should get a tonal feel of the game first before they decide to delve further into the mysteries of magic. I usually never throw magic at them in the first few runs anyhow. I like the world to feel more made of meat than ether. Magic is, after all, rare. When we start things off in this manner, the magickers find themselves wanting to spend their initial Karma on more physical skills (like Body), to roll better on the bullets and knives that are coming their way. They flesh their characters out more organically in this way.

2) The initiation process should be a story, not just an initial number. It's a big experience for a character, and as such, should have a big story to it. It's never, "ok, you're initiated." It has depth, merit, and meaning. The world becomes a million times more complex. And I usually take my time on the first time a magician uses a metamagic technique. Same thing with spells for that matter.

GM opinion? No at chargen.
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Chrome Head
post Sep 9 2013, 01:37 AM
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These are two separate questions..

Should initiation be allowed out of chargen? I think probably not, but it's a matter of opinion.

Is initiation allowed at chargen by RAW? I'm fairly confident that yes it is, though it may become the subject of an errata.

Whether you play by RAW or not in your game is always up to the GM. Always was, always will be.
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xsansara
post Sep 9 2013, 07:59 AM
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Ironically, I tend to say Initiation should be forbidden, but am much in favour of Submersion at chargen to make Drohnomancer possible. How about that?
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Dolanar
post Sep 9 2013, 08:13 AM
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I would allow Initiation & Submersion in the same instance: Describe to me in detail your character's first experience with this sudden release of magical energies. in writing. if I like it, I'll allow it, if not, you still have some extra points.
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PraetorGradivus
post Sep 10 2013, 03:12 AM
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I personally don't believe that normal character should be allowed to initiate at chargen- probably prime runners should have the option as, well, they're prime runners.

I just posted it, because reading the rules, the badly written rules, it would seem by RAW that you could when you couldn't in any previous edition.

It's like the rules for cyberlimbs.... people can read it that the cyberlimb either can start at most at your characters agi & str and then be enhanced or it can start at you races maximum unaugmented agi & str and then be enhanced. That leads to... a 11 agility cyberam if you were an elf with 2 agi and exceptional attribute while the other would max out at 6 (the cyberarm can always start at 3 plus +3 enhancement.).
11 vs 6 is a huge difference...yet, because of the wording in the cyberlimb rules you could make an argument for either.
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Chrome Head
post Sep 10 2013, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (PraetorGradivus @ Sep 9 2013, 10:12 PM) *
I personally don't believe that normal character should be allowed to initiate at chargen- probably prime runners should have the option as, well, they're prime runners.

I just posted it, because reading the rules, the badly written rules, it would seem by RAW that you could when you couldn't in any previous edition.

It's like the rules for cyberlimbs.... people can read it that the cyberlimb either can start at most at your characters agi & str and then be enhanced or it can start at you races maximum unaugmented agi & str and then be enhanced. That leads to... a 11 agility cyberam if you were an elf with 2 agi and exceptional attribute while the other would max out at 6 (the cyberarm can always start at 3 plus +3 enhancement.).
11 vs 6 is a huge difference...yet, because of the wording in the cyberlimb rules you could make an argument for either.


The book implies that the cyberlimbs can be boosted up to 11 in your example, which is crazy. Case in point: Ork Street Samurai p. 112 has 6 Agi and 5 Str attributes, but two Str 11, Agi 9 cyber arms, which are his racial maxima + 3. In your example, he couldn't have Str above 8.

I concur that the rules are badly written in many important places. Nothing that can't be solved with an errata or 2 though.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 10 2013, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Sep 9 2013, 11:50 PM) *
The book implies that the cyberlimbs can be boosted up to 11 in your example, which is crazy. Case in point: Ork Street Samurai p. 112 has 6 Agi and 5 Str attributes, but two Str 11, Agi 9 cyber arms, which are his racial maxima + 3. In your example, he couldn't have Str above 8.

I concur that the rules are badly written in many important places. Nothing that can't be solved with an errata or 2 though.


Errata.... Heh, you funny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Lobo0705
post Sep 10 2013, 09:42 PM
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For me, I wouldn't allow it except for a Prime Runner game.
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