Gangs., What are their defenses? Also, my players stay out. Options

[FuelDrop]

This week our group is likely to be attacking a street gang. Specifically, this gang is one splinter faction from a failed attempt by the Humanis Policlub to exert influence over the Redmond Barrens.

TIME FOR BACKSTORY: the HP tried to take over by slipping a bunch of human supremacist gangs funding and gear and turning them into a united force that was steamrolling smaller gangs one at a time until the local organized crime types decided that the end result would be bad for business and hired some runners to blunt their assault. Afterwards, the united gangs once again fractured due to infighting and several of the weaker factions got taken out by established gangs like the Cutters and the Crimson Crush.

Now the faction we're talking about here is right on the edge of Redmond and Snohomish, and has recently gotten themselves a new sponsor: The Hand of Five.

MORE BACKSTORY: Our campaign follows the canon timeline only loosely. Due both to this and to out of game factors (our 5th edition book shipment hasn't arrived yet, so new players are starting with 4th edition and we'll be changing up when they arrive) we will be running both 4th and 5th edition games set in the same timeline at the same date. Here's how we're basically running it: Nanotech is becoming unreliable, but since so many production lines and operations are still dependent on the technology things have gotten interesting. Anything made by nanotech (SR4 prices) is suspect (It has gremlins equal to half its device rating (rounded up) to represent glitches and flaws in their manufacturing process), with Cyberware instead having the buggy 'ware quality automatically and critical glitches result in total failure and Bioware automatically downgrading all glitches into critical glitches and preventing edge use on rolls that glitch or critically glitch (No you do not regain edge for these critical glitches). The end result of this is that while high-end 'ware and gear of all varieties are available at very high 5th ed prices, there's an entire black/grey market of surplus 'ware at 4th edition prices. This means that if you're willing to take the risks involved there is a ton of cheap 'ware out there, along with older weapons being available at an insane discount.

Hand of Five has been shipping the gang military-surplus nano-forged gear (which is suddenly all obsolete due to no sane military wanting known faulty gear on the front line), making them disproportionately well equipped, all in exchange for doing the HoF's bidding.

So, with all that out of the way, my question: How well defended would this gang's hang-outs be. They have no reason to believe they're going to be attacked, so what kind of state of readiness should they have?

[Dolanar]

Probably 2-3 roaming patrols on some sort of vehicles (if you go car or such 2-4/vehicle) if you go bikes 2-4 bikes. all vehicles with weapon mounts. possibly an HMG or LMG on the Car/Truck, possibly MP or SMG on the Bikes, (SMG probably more likely) (this is assuming a large territory they are protecting, smaller territory cut the patrols down). At their bases, maybe 2 guys on the walls outside, one with a scoped weapon watching for anything incoming, keeping an ear on comms from the patrols (in reality they are probably shootin the shit with each other) I'd roll a D6: 1-2 no other units outside, 3-4 1 other unit outside, doin whatever, 5-6 2 extra guys outside doin anything you want them to be doin. All of them probably have a melee weapon (just in case, in most cases probably a knife of some sort) 1 handgun & 1 automatic weapon each. Inside, they probably have about 5-8 guys equally well equipped with some extra munitions inside. At least one of the guys inside possibly has some sort of explosives.

[toturi]

How smart is the leader? Do the leader or his lieutanants have any kind of tactical skill knowledge? How established are they? Who are their rivals around the turf? Is the hangout a place where they relax or a gathering point to keep an eye on their turf?

[Blade]

A gang can be many different things.

Some gangs won't have hide-outs. Many people in the neighborhood (or even the whole Sprawl) will be members, and some might house some meeting, store some gear or house many members, but they won't have hide-outs.

Others will be disguised as official associations, they will have a HQ, but it will be the HQ of the legal front. Some gang members might help in case of attack, but they'll mostly rely on a security company.

Others will have HQ, but the problem won't be the people defending it inside, but the fact that if anyone attacks, the building will quickly be surrounded by an angry mob of local citizen.

Other will have their HQ in a bar. The defense will be whoever is there at the moment, plus the shotgun the barman has under the counter. And if it's attacked, they will either rebuild it or go to a different bar.

And these are just a few examples.

[FuelDrop]

How smart is the leader? Do the leader or his lieutanants have any kind of tactical skill knowledge? How established are they? Who are their rivals around the turf? Is the hangout a place where they relax or a gathering point to keep an eye on their turf?

Ok: The leader is more along the lines of 'Charismatic hatemonger' than 'Can beat Patton in his sleep', and over the 6 months or so that they've been masters of this area (It's fairly rural, so there's a lot of ground but comparatively few people and hence the cops don't really care what goes on here. It also means they can hold a relatively large area with no-one caring enough to mount a serious opposition to their rule from outside and no-one strong or numerous enough to mount resistance from within).

Their primary rivals are other splinters of the same Humanis gang that spawned them, split off due to ideological differences (This gang is in it to kill metas. Most of the other gangs are in it for power or money). In the month or so that they've had HoF backing they've become virtually untouchable by their neighbors, and have gradually taken over parts of their territories. Several of the smaller gangs around them have been meeting up in secret and forming alliances, but they're scared to go up against these guys (I suck at naming things. Let's go with the Ultra-Humanites for now) as they've been getting enough dodgy 'ware and high-end weaponry that their members could probably take on the other gangers at a ratio of 2-1 or better. note: Remember, these guys are getting 'ware funneled to them by an organization with pretty extensive resources who are themselves buying it at SR4 prices. rating 2 muscle replacement or wired reflexes 1 on anyone remotely important is not out of the question here. Likewise, Armour jackets and lowest bidder assault rifles for all! To make matters worse they've been getting a flood of new members looking to cash in on the gang's sudden rise in power. These opportunists are getting bottom of the barrel gear compared to the members who've been loyal since before their sudden good fortune (and are also unaugmented. You have to EARN that stuff), but they're still on par with the foot troops most of their neighbors have at their disposal.

A direct result of this sudden rush of power is overconfidence. The Ultra-Humanites are confident that none of their neighbors will risk a gang war with them right now and are happy to leave a buffer of lesser gangs between them and anyone who could actually challenge them (Primarily because they'd be severely outclassed trying to match up to even a true mid-tier gang like the Crimson Crush right now). Because of their perceived position of strength, their security isn't as hot as it probably could be.

They have three hangouts. The local pub (The drunken cabbage), the local garage (Murphy’s) and their gang clubhouse (an unmarked barn with a secured basement). Obviously, each location has different levels of security and a different role.

[Ramid]

Here's how i have played Gang security.

Gangs will rely on non tech means of keeping tabs on things. Almost anyone living in a gangs territory is a potential scout for them. People may not be part of the gang but they may work for them
selling drugs or they may get paid to let the gang know about the "heavily Chromed goon" that's been lurking in the area. Or that shiny Black Eurocar that has driven around the area once or twice.

Any drones flying around are likely to get shot at. The gang will probably assume any drone entering the area is either a rival gang scouting or Knight Errant keeping tabs on them either way they will probably shoot em if they spot a drone.

Doing legwork in the neighborhood is likely to get back to the gang.

If the runners aren't discrete enough they may find themselves coming under attack or at least alarming the gang enough that the pull their people in to be ready.

Having said that gangers are gangers not trained soldiers or corporate security recreational drug use or bored guards playing the most recent release of Desert wars 2075 may
distract em enough that it doesn't matter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Voran]

It depends as there is a mix. For example, lets look at some of the media portrayals.

If you're a type of gang/criminal enterprise that operates a service/or produces something, lets say chops cars or makes and sells drugs, if your crashpad is also your place of business, (which is kinda ill-advised) it'll be defended. Especially if this is a function that lends to rivals. Other crews, other gangs, etc.

At the very least, a gang should have some sort of territory it claims and defend it as readily as a crazed guard dog. Its their life. Now, if they are small time, they might relax, and might be able too, because they're small time. In this case? Hate group? Yeah those are the crazy militia nut-types. Also, ESPECIALLY now, if they're a fragmented group that occurred due to imploded infighting, they should be on high alert.

The Bar/Pub? Depends, if its their place vs a place they sorta co-opted/hang out, the defense changes. If they just sorta show up, it depends on how the owners feel about them. If they own it, it'll be defended, why? Cause its an asset of theirs. Same with the garage, asset so protected. Home? Sounds like already sorta protected. How much depends on resources and size. If they're stuck defending it themselves and need to prove their defensive strength regularly then that's going to be alot of personal resources invested with opportunity of downtime due to sheer burnout of needing to keep alert. If they've achieved a stage where they have a buffer of influence, the individual load gets less and they can relax a bit more.

Shooting drones is...hm..problematic. From a metagame perspective someone sending drones in the area has the juice to...yknow...send drones into the area. If its the KE, shooting their drones should result in "Lets teach these punks some manners" even if they don't really intend to 'Police' the barrens. Likewise, other criminal organizations aren't just going to take people pinging their hardware lightly. The sense of "unless you're sure its a good idea, don't shoot'.

Afterall, shooting down a KE drone is shorthand for "Please send the drone with the minigun and missiles, or the one we can't shoot down with firearms to drop ordinance on us"

[GloriousRuse]

It depends on how "real" you want it to be.

At one "this is how favelas and modern day LA work" end of the spectrum, most gangs don't really "patrol" per se, though a good number of them are likely to hang out on thier turf. The relative vigilance and armament of those hanging out is always open to debate, but you have to remember that they spend most of their hanging out socializing and not getting shot. Or day to day money making (dealing or comparatively petty crime like the odd mugging), in which case those "at work" would likely have a bit more alertness and a bit more firepower on hand. So, the intial layer of defense would be comparatively minimal.

What modern day gangs do have is an early warning network of wannabes, probates, and a few street rats they pay off to give a warning as well as the fact they are generally dispersed through the hood. If they're particularly amped up, they might put actual gang bangers on watch, but definitely not your OGs. When someone sees the KE or a rival going in, the phones start ringing and a hasty decision is made to bail, stand around innocent like after dumping any evidence, or fight back by bringing more bangers in on it. Most of the time they won't pick a losing fight, so once the runners are a known hit...they'll just try to bail out, blend in, and plan a way to counterattack.

Likewise you can expect reasonably heavy hardware (even modern American gangs frequently have AK-47s), but they are generally brought out for purpose hits, not day to day handling. their skills and knowledge of the hardware however, are often low.

But once they do go on the offensive, they know how to blend with their community, and know their 'hood like the back of their hand. Hit hard, run fast, make it hard for the enemy or a rival to find you and hit back.

[kzt]

As above. Real gangs don't work like the absurd gangs in SR. They are much, much larger, but they don't spend all day acting like a typical SR street gang member. You want to blow up a gang hideout without a big shootout? Show up at 8am on a Monday. It will be empty and all the gang bangers will be in one of their gf's bed, still drunk. All the honest adults will be at work and all the little kids will be in school. You can probably hit all 3 before anyone can organize anything.

You try to pull that off at midnight it will not go so good for you. Unless you have a platoon fast-roping onto the hangout from helos or something equally absurd there will be people noticing anything that looks like a raiding party and dropping enough dimes that everyone in these places will be alert and armed and have made a decision as to whether to bolt or not before you get to the first place.

They may well not have heavy firepower inside of these, it's normally hidden where a police raid on their known hideouts will not find it, but it won't be far and it won't take long to get it into action.

And once you do get into a firefight things will go downhill fast if you don't hit and bolt. They are not stupid, they will attempt to take out the vehicles and maneuver to keep the players from having cover. They know the area, they know how to get to the roofs and where a great place for a guy with a scoped rifle is. And while the average ganger isn't that great, they are not all average. and those are the guys with the scoped rifles. Armed reinforcements will continually arrive and pretty soon the 12 guys with pistols will be 200 guys with assault rifles, hand grenades, grenade launchers and the odd HE/anti-vehicle rocket.

Of course, I'm not sure how blowing up their hideout helps. This isn't where their gear is cached, the leaders are still around and they can still do business. And now they are pretty darn annoyed.

[FuelDrop]

As above. Real gangs don't work like the absurd gangs in SR. They are much, much larger, but they don't spend all day acting like a typical SR street gang member. You want to blow up a gang hideout without a big shootout? Show up at 8am on a Monday. It will be empty and all the gang bangers will be in one of their gf's bed, still drunk. All the honest adults will be at work and all the little kids will be in school. You can probably hit all 3 before anyone can organize anything.

You try to pull that off at midnight it will not go so good for you. Unless you have a platoon fast-roping onto the hangout from helos or something equally absurd there will be people noticing anything that looks like a raiding party and dropping enough dimes that everyone in these places will be alert and armed and have made a decision as to whether to bolt or not before you get to the first place.

They may well not have heavy firepower inside of these, it's normally hidden where a police raid on their known hideouts will not find it, but it won't be far and it won't take long to get it into action.

And once you do get into a firefight things will go downhill fast if you don't hit and bolt. They are not stupid, they will attempt to take out the vehicles and maneuver to keep the players from having cover. They know the area, they know how to get to the roofs and where a great place for a guy with a scoped rifle is. And while the average ganger isn't that great, they are not all average. and those are the guys with the scoped rifles. Armed reinforcements will continually arrive and pretty soon the 12 guys with pistols will be 200 guys with assault rifles, hand grenades, grenade launchers and the odd HE/anti-vehicle rocket.

Of course, I'm not sure how blowing up their hideout helps. This isn't where their gear is cached, the leaders are still around and they can still do business. And now they are pretty darn annoyed.

Blowing up their stronghold won't do anything, I just want to be ready in case the group decides that it's the best option. Player logic is weird.

[thorya]

I agree pretty strongly with what everyone else has said about the gangs being distributed and hard to hit everyone in one swing. A lot of neighborhood spotters (including kids, which might make runners hesitate to just snipe them all) and experience running, ditching their gear, and blending in. Expect the fight to be more likely a door-to-door fight through hallways and buildings with people taking pop-shots at them and ducking behind cover that the gang knows well and that the team doesn't know at all.

Some complications to consider:
If they hit this gang and anyone in the neighborhood got a good look at them, there's a fair chance there will be a bounty on them as well as a couple drive by's of any known acquaintances or hide outs connected with the team.
Since there are a lot of low level members looking for advancement, they can be hit with random violence from someone trying to make a name for themselves, especially if their meta-humans. They could be doing the footwork and have some one take several poorly aimed shots at them and it's just some teen with an AK and something to prove. Their vehicles or other stuff may be trashed.
If the gang deals drugs (and a lot of them do, even racially motivated ones), they might come out of their raid thinking they've scored a big deal of cash in street ready drugs, just to find that they've gotten a hot batch and end up killing a few contacts/fences.
Drive by's or an SUV full of gangers pulling up when the group starts asking too many questions in the wrong places.
Makeshift road blocks.
Loan Star officers on the take showing up to arrest the group complete with some planted drugs if they piss people off.
If the gang's got military gear, grenades or other explosives on their vehicle.
CC cameras or short distance wireless recording devices around the garage and bar (just normal security measures, that could catch the team in the act).
If they're in a rural area, they could hit a hide-out to find it's a drugs or explosive lab and shit could get real very fast.
The barn might have barb wire and monofilament trip lines in fields, trees, or abandoned lots around the barn so that the approaches to the barn are limited.
Guard dogs. Frightened cows. Even chickens. Animals can be a pain in the ass and draw a lot of attention to you.

[kzt]

If the players show up and go do something, who is keeping their ride safe? Even the car alarms won't go off if you just park it in with a pair of junk pickups, but the players won't be going anywhere. I'd expect less subtle moves, like setting it on fire or a few hand grenades tied together rolled under it. Either one is really hard on the tires and gas tank.

Though the though of the players running out of a tenement , chased by dozens of armed gang bangers, and running to their car only to find it up on blocks with no wheels is pretty darn funny.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Generally speaking, if you're bringing your ride to something like this, either the rigger is doing overwatch from within the car, or the car is capable of defending itself.

[toturi]

It really depends on the gang's security setup. Even if they have something like the neighbourhood early warning network as described above, or have a dispersed manpower setup, or some other countermeasure, it still pays to gather as much intelligence as possible on the target.

There is also the factor of why the PCs are attacking the gang. Are they there to capture/kill? Gather/steal intel? Just generally cause mayhem?

[FuelDrop]

Well, turns out that they didn't get to the gang and aren't likely to for some time.

[ShadowDragon8685]

What happened?

[FuelDrop]

We got sidetracked.

EDIT: also, EPIC FAIL!