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> Balance of power.
FuelDrop
post Sep 10 2013, 11:51 AM
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The corporations have, from a runner's point of view, limitless resources. I don't care how badass your pet runner is, compared to one of the AAA's he is barely above a wageslave.

This is as it should be. If you have anyone other than another AAA or high end AA corp even approaching the power and influence of one of the big 10 and they're not a great dragon or immortal elf... well, I hate to be a stop-having-fun guy, but... I'm going to leave it there before I get flamed off the site.

Anyway. The big ten have resources that eclipse any two modern governments combined. The only thing that eclipses their actual power is their greed, hence the obvious question: how much of their assets are they willing to sink into their elite forces?

Let's look at this analytically. At its most basic level the megas want as much return for as little investment as possible. This is true of everything they do. Megacorps are also, ultimately, conservative. The status quo is good for them, and they would only act to upset it if they were certain they could come out on top... unless they're Aztechnology of course.
Now these two conditions are part of the reason the corporations hire shadowrunners: They're highly elite individuals who provide their own 'Ware and training while not risking a corp war if they fail and get captured.

However, sometimes you need to make a statement and trot out elite troops with your brand name on them. This could be a show of force in response to a particularly bloody shadowrun, a statement that the mcguffin is not going anywhere, or to show that you'd have better luck getting cold fusion in your bathtub than assassinating the guy they're guarding.

Now we face the corporate dilemma: How much cash and training are we willing to drop into a meatbag who, no matter how elite, can be taken down with a hunting rifle and a lucky shot? Likewise, how willing are you to put your very finite supply of awakened individuals into harms way?

We go back to the corps being conservative. Firstly, they minimize the risk by looking at exactly how much force needs to be applied to a situation, and what they expect to gain out of it. If the force being risked has a high price-tag and the potential gain is relatively low (EG taking down a shadowrunner team who hit you several days ago merely for revenge, and not doing it via drone-launched missiles but with elite special forces in tight quarters combat) then they're likely to either seek a less risky option or just ignore it entirely. Once again, Aztechnology bucks the trend by being extremely vengeful regardless of cost. Watch out for those guys.

This means that you can reasonably expect the corporations to keep various degrees of special forces available to them, so they can use the right tool for the job. It also means that if your runners are discreet then they're more likely to lowball the response than escalate, as if a lucky shot takes their guy out then you're better off having the special forces lite take the loss than your chrome monsters.

So now the question: How much chrome are corps really willing to put in their elite forces? at what point does it stop being cost efficient?
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Shemhazai
post Sep 10 2013, 01:02 PM
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Spending more can help ensure that they don't lose their investment in the entire team.

Besides, they probably pay a fraction of the street price on 'ware.
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mister__joshua
post Sep 10 2013, 01:16 PM
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I'd think they'd spend big. Cram in as much as they can. If these guys are used as a 'show of force' then the force had better be showy. I see it a bit like a football team spending all of their budget on one player. He can get injured just like everyone else but is a show of wealth and ability and on his day he'll win the game.

So on Corp special forces I'd hedge on not very numerous but damned elite
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Sendaz
post Sep 10 2013, 02:18 PM
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Plus they recycle.

No man left behind isn't for unit loyalty, it's to recover and reuse.
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Bull
post Sep 10 2013, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Sep 10 2013, 08:02 AM) *
Besides, they probably pay a fraction of the street price on 'ware.


This is a big key people overlook. It likely costs a corp 10-20% of the retail price to install a piece of gear. Still expensive for high end stuff, but...

Bull
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Voran
post Sep 10 2013, 04:36 PM
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Its kind of an odd setup too tho. With skillwires and stuff, you don't really need to train up elite forces, you can have mid-range-ones, yknow the type that are physically fit enough to move like an elite when required and not hurt themselves too much, then wire them up. You throw in some basic or decent packages/suites that are little actual cost to you as a corp to further nudge the resilience of that asset in your favor, but just like the wageslave, where there's a program running from hire that does a cost/benefit analysis of keeping you on or firing your ass, it runs the same for secforce. Unless you've got additional skills that let you get out of the middling-wage-sec tier.

Mage resources are noted as being pampered/accommodated much more than mundanes simply because they're much rarer.

In terms of actual skill numbers? I'd say 3-5 is the 'average'. 3 being competent, 5 being proficient. This would represent the average 'patrol dude' of a corps secforce. Their crisis or high threat response would be higher rated, but also smaller in numbers overall. Even if a military base has MPs and stuff, they're not all Special Forces types. And depending on their role, may only be trained in a limited but focused fashion.

Even in the elite stuff, how you want to focus will affect outcome. Red Samurai are good shocktroops and ass kickers, but crappy at the whole 'don't be obvious' stuff. And their no-metas, pro-japanese genetics/etc etc limits their pools.
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Iduno
post Sep 10 2013, 09:51 PM
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Most would probably be the lightly armed, low-skilled, and lightly or unaugmented security people there to prevent minor violations and hold bigger problems until the heavy troops arrive. Why spend big on someone who will need it rarely or not at all? Besides, the front lines are also the public-facing parts of the corporation. Keep it low key and friendly when people are watching. It also helps that you aren't tipping your hand that there is something here worth protecting. Their number one priority would be identification of problems, sounding an alarm, preventing vandalism, and delaying tactics.

The High Threat Response teams will be where the corp goes all-out. Well-trained and well-equipped. There are fewer of them, so the investment goes further. Just transport them where they are needed, and expect the rest of your security to catch the problem early and delay long enough for a proper response. They will either capture or kill, with the goal of preventing escape and recovering something if there was a reported theft.

The medium level stuff would probably be armed guards further into the facility protecting the good stuff. Somewhere between good enough for filling the chair at the front desk and the special ops you have waiting off-site to go where they are needed. They have weapons and some low-level augmentations, and they know how to use them. They will capture and interrogate if they can, and will try to keep collateral damage to a minimum.

Higher security facilities can also use more cameras, drones, and walls/fences. Stuff you buy once and don't pay a salary for. Cyberware may be reusable, but people have this idea that they should be paid more for being more elite.
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Udoshi
post Sep 10 2013, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 10 2013, 09:04 AM) *
This is a big key people overlook. It likely costs a corp 10-20% of the retail price to install a piece of gear. Still expensive for high end stuff, but...

Bull


Another thing people overlook is that betaware is available at any hospital. Any citizen with insurance and the time to schedule an appointment ahead of time can get access to it.
Beta-jacks/comms/eyes should be common, and the kind of graduation present your middle-high class family saves up for. (like cars and stuff)

When you apply that to a mint-a-cybersoldier-program, betaware is the standard anyone actually important is getting, (alpha at the minimum because it doesn't necessarily need to be tailored to a specific person)

QUOTE (Voran @ Sep 10 2013, 09:36 AM) *
In terms of actual skill numbers? I'd say 3-5 is the 'average'. 3 being competent, 5 being proficient. This would represent the average 'patrol dude' of a corps secforce. Their crisis or high threat response would be higher rated, but also smaller in numbers overall. Even if a military base has MPs and stuff, they're not all Special Forces types. And depending on their role, may only be trained in a limited but focused fashion.


This i take issue with. Judging overall competence by skill ratings is a bad way to do it; you need to look at overall dice pools. i consider 7 to be just starting to scrape by as competent(5 being where you stop critfailing consistently), 9 is where you start to do consistently good work in not-so-great circumstances and Proficient is rolling 11-14 depending on role.(just because there are more bonuses available in some areas than in others)
To adjust your example, 3 is minimum-standards, 4 with a specialization is competent, and 5 actually proficient.
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Voran
post Sep 11 2013, 10:26 AM
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Tho I was strictly referring to skills, as defined by skill ratings in the rule book. Until you hit professional rating 4 types and higher, you're not even seeing 5 points in a skill (active combat). Save for Lieutenant types, which seem to end up being around another +2 dice compared to their professional rated mooks.

So again, in terms of 'actual skill numbers', you don't see much beyond 3-5 for typical/stock security types. As for dice pool, what else can we expect? What GM in their right mind says, "Hm rating 3 and 4 security types, I'll give them 2s for physical attributes"? I assumed everyone would start them off at least at 4s....maybe 3s for strength (as listed in the NPC section) since not too many security types would be melee-leaning types by preference.
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