Character that one-shot kills, every time, Reaching the highest DP possible under normal chargen Options

[Chrome Head]

I tried to build a full character with the single purpose of min-maxing his DP with a sniper rifle. Of course, it's an elf bioadept! Sorry if something similar has already been posted, but I thought some people might be interested to see what a full char sheet could look like.

The DP itself: 7 skill + 2 spec, +1 ref. rec. + 2 smartlink + 7 agi + 2 muscle toner + 2 improved phys. att. + 5 improved ability = 28

This often reaches the accuracy limit on the gun, which is of 10 (7 + 2 smartlink + 1 enhanced accuracy), providing 25P of damage and -5 AP with high explosive rounds. You can also roll the 3 dice of Edge to ignore the limit altogether and apply a rule of six on 31 dice, which provides an average of roughly 13 successes, for 27P and -5 AP. All this from one bullet at long range.

This is obviously a highly specialized build made for demonstration, although it is arguably playable, this is some wiggle room with the attributes, skills, and adept powers.

[ Spoiler ]

A: Attributes 24
B: Adept, Magic 6, rating 4 active skill
C: Resources 140,000
D: Elf (0)
E: Skills 18/0

Attributes (16)
Body 5
Agility 7 (11)
Reaction 5
Strength 4
Charisma 3
Intuition 5
Logic 2
Willpower 4

Edge 3 (cost 25 karma)
Initiative 10 + 1D6
Essence 5
Magic 5

Physical Limit 6
Mental Limit 5
Social Limit 5

Skills (18/0 + 4 free)
Long Arms (sniper rifle) 7
Automatics 3
Gymnastics 6
Perception 4
Etiquette 2 (+2 from mentor)

Knowledge Skills (12 Free)
Contacts (9 free)

Qualities (-1 karma)
Aptitude: Long arms (14)
Mentor Spirit: Dragon slayer (5)
Negative qualities (-20)

Adept Powers (5)
Improved Ability: Long arms x5 (2.5)
Improved Agility 2 (2)
Combat Sense (0.5)
Enhanced Accuracy: Long arms (mentor)

Gear (140,000 + 2,000 from 1 karma)

Armor Jacket (1000)
Helmet (100)

Low Lifestyle 1 month (2000)

Clothes worth a total of 680

Sony Emperor (700)
subvocal mic (50)
AR gloves (150)

Ear buds (select sound filter 3) (900)

Fake SIN rating 4 (10000)

Ares Desert Strike (17,500)
Smartgun system, external (200)
Imaging scope (included)
Shock pad (included)
4 spare clips (20)
100 regular ammo (200)
50 APDS rounds (600)
50 explosive rounds (400)

Cybereyes rating 2 (0.3 E, 6000)
Smartlink (4000)
Thermographic vision (1500)
Flare compensation (1000)
Camera and Image Link (included)

Reflex Recorder: Long arms (0.1 E, 14000)
Muscle Toner Rating 2 (0.4 E, 64,000)
Platelet Factories (0.2E, 17,000)

Let me know if you think I made a mistake somewhere, and of course if you have comments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Large Edit: Corrected the errors about the limit on adept powers and the damage values. Also removed initiation to avoid controversy on that topic (it would increase the dp only by 1 at this point).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ummm... You can only have as many levels of an Adept power as you have magic rating. So, no, no 11 levels of ability.

Also...
Ares Desert Strike STARTS at 14p damage -5 AP with Explosive Ammunition, rising to 24/25p with 10/11 Hits (Limit) and 28p with Uncapped Limits. So your damage calculations are off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kerbarian]

I believe you'd be limited to 4 levels of Improved Ability for that character, not 11. i.e. that when they say "The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)" they're referring to the maximum result, not the maximum augmentation.

However, even if that's not the case the adept would be limited to 6 levels of Improved Ability. From p.308: "The maximum number of levels you can have of any one power is equal to your Magic Rating, or up to a limit listed by the power, whichever is less."

27-29 is still a pretty huge dice pool, though, often hitting the accuracy limit of 10.

[Lobo0705]

What the above two posters said - and in addition there is lots of debate as to whether or not you can Initiate in char gen - and I'll second kerbarian's note that the way that should be read is that you can get 4 extra dice, not 11 extra dice. I will, however, grant you that it is written terribly.

[Chrome Head]

I made several edits to take into account your observations (thank you!).

It's still a pretty damn big edgeless dice pool at 28, with a limit of 10 and no funny business!

Do you limit the DP of your players? What would you say to a player that shows up for a game with this character?

[Dolanar]

I imagine the improved ability is not meant to be 11, I imagine it is meant to be the same as it was in 4e which would limit the Total pool benefit to 150% of the skill's maximum. but here are a few things.

-Why did you limit the Skill to 7? obviously this is 5e ( you mention the Limits) so why not a 13 skill for a maximized Dicepool? Or is this meant to be right out of Character Creation?

-I would argue that Muscle Toner would not be able to be used along side the Adept Power as they are both Augmentations, one is simply a Magical Augmentation to Agi.

-Assuming I am correct about the limit to the Improved Ability Adept Power (its what reasonably makes sense here) that limits your IA to +4

your logical total becomes 7skill+1RR+2 Wireless Smartlink +9agi +4 Improved ability= 22 dice which is about Average for a well trained Powerful Sniper. using the Ares Desrt Strike with a 10Acc 13p -8AP, (for killing in one shot, I'd rather use the APDS ammo to ensure their armor is completely meaningless. assuming we buy hits, that adds an extra +5 damage (1 hit for every 4 dice)meaning 10acc 18p with -8AP

[grid.samurai]

I made several edits to take into account your observations (thank you!).

It's still a pretty damn big edgeless dice pool at 28, with a limit of 10 and no funny business!

Do you limit the DP of your players? What would you say to a player that shows up for a game with this character?

I would allow it. There are plenty of ways to mess with snipers. This character would be weak against magical attacks to start. And without Masking, would be easy to spot by any mage worth his salt. Not to mention drones that could cause some nasty surveillance. From a story perspective, a sniper going around shooting explosive ammo at everyone would definitely have the shadows on edge. I'd like to think there would be some heightened KE activity looking for this guy. In any event, I wouldn't disallow something that was legitimately made using the rules.

[Lobo0705]

He was doing it straight out of char gen, hence the skill limit of 7.

The Muscle Toner and Imp Agility are compatible, just as long as they don't add up to 4 more than his natural Agility (which in this case, they do not).

[Lobo0705]

Do you limit the DP of your players? What would you say to a player that shows up for a game with this character?

It all depends on the rest of the group.

If the rest of the group has dice pools in the 12-18 range, and you show up with a pool in the high 20's, and it is going to disrupt the game, I'll ask you to tone it down - make your character less of a one trick pony.

If EVERYONE is like that, then go ahead - you will fit right in.

[Dolanar]

incidentally, just because he has a 20+ DP doesn;t mean he's a one trick Pony, I have made a character very similar to this (its my only really well developed character) who is the primary stealth & B&E character of the party he was in. those a a few more tricks he has.

[wepv]

why build an elf for just 1 extra die? wouldn't human be better? You would have 5 edge(without spending karma) and if you can find 5 more karma you can still get to six, or if you cant you can spend that 25 karma on something else.

[Chrome Head]

why build an elf for just 1 extra die? wouldn't human be better? You would have 5 edge(without spending karma) and if you can find 5 more karma you can still get to six, or if you cant you can spend that 25 karma on something else.

Well I thought about it mostly in terms of getting the highest natural dice pool for the action. I agree that more edge is better, especially in this build which has Attributes at priority A (hence we can easily do without +2 charisma as well). My post is meant as an exploration, there are several variations that can be done.

More importantly, you can "sacrifice" a few dice of the 28 to make the character a lot more well-rounded. Get rid of exceptional attribute for 14 extra karma, for instance, and consider getting 2 adept powers back and drop to 9 agility, which should be sufficient. Another option is to get rid of the muscle toners (and/or all 'wares for that matter) and give resources priority D, in order to either get edge for an elf, or much higher skills for a priority E human. That last option is probably what I would go for if I were to play this type of character. The extra skills can flesh him out a good bit more, and take advantage of the high stats.

Like I said, consider that there is wiggle room to adjust to whatever concept you have, but this build shows how to get to near-30 dice without edge.

[Dolanar]

I could show you my Elven Adept Sniper, he has a good chunk of skills & such & is pretty well rounded for what he is, also...the higher the DP the more likely you are that you can do better Called Shots to increase DV or eliminate Armor.

[Shemhazai]

Can that character have Improved Ability (Longarms) at 5? It's not Improved Ability (Longarms (Sniper Rifle)). The wording is "maximum improvement possible" and not "maximum rating" so there could be room for interpretation.

[Dolanar]

its reasonable to think that its not suddenly some extremely powerful ability. Also considering the poor writing of the book, its reasonable to assume that this is yet another possible poorly written ability.

[Chrome Head]

The called shot thing goes without saying, yes.

I'm very interested to see your sniper elf, you can copy-paste it to this threat (in spoiler tags) if you want.

[Lobo0705]

Can that character have Improved Ability (Longarms) at 5? It's not Improved Ability (Longarms (Sniper Rifle)). The wording is "maximum improvement possible" and not "maximum rating" so there could be room for interpretation.

He can not have it at 5, only 4, here is what it says:

"This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat,
Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of
the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this
power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum
improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5
(rounded up)."

So the OP's original interpretation was that you could have the ability itself rating of skill x1.5 (round up), and so gave himself a rating 11 ability.

It was pointed out that you cannot have a rating of your ability higher than your Magic Attribute, so he reduced it to 5 (which is his Magic Attribute)

However, it has to be reduced to 4. His skill is 7, and his ability can raise the rating of that skill to 1.5 times its current level. He cannot have the ability of a rating equal to 1.5 times his current skill level, he can improve the skill's rating by 1.5 times its current level. Thus, 7 times 1.5 (round up) is 11 - so the maximum he can have the Improve Ability for Longarms is 4, not 5


So your real total is 27 dice - and, not to be pedantic, but you said "at long range" but with the Image Mag you have, it only reduces the range by one category - so at long range you would take another -1 die modifier, and so only roll 26 dice.

It is still a helluva lot of dice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chrome Head]

Good catch on the range. The smartgun system could be equipped with a better zooming device and solve that issue.

I think that your interpretation of RAW is incorrect. The key sentence is:

"The maximum improvement possible is your current skill level x 1.5 (rounded up)."

It does not talk about the maximum improved skill rating, but directly about the improvement itself. This might be unintentional from the writers, but I hope you will agree that as written, the rules tell us that the maximum improvement in this case is 11, limited also, however, by the magic rating.

[Dolanar]

which again, could just be a matter of the poor writing

[Lobo0705]

"The smartgun system could be equipped with a better zooming device and solve that issue."

Um - is this some hypothetical or are you actually referencing something in the rules I haven't seen?

I disagree with your interpretation of the rules, but that is because whoever wrote/proofread these rules should be rounded up and flogged, given how vague and inconsistent they are.

Here is the ability in 4e:

"This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill
by 1 per level. A skill’s maximum modified rating equals its
base rating x 1.5. Improved ability must be purchased for a
specific skill, not a skill group."

Reads almost the same, except it is actually freaking clear.

If it was supposed to work the same as in 4e, it should have been written that way.

If it was supposed to work the way you describe it, it should have been written:

"This power increases the Rating of a specific Combat,
Physical, Social, Technical, or Vehicle skill per level of
the power. You need to know the skill in order to buy this
power for it, and you can’t buy it for skill groups. The maximum
rating of this power possible is your current skill level x 1.5
(rounded up)."

Either way is clear.

The way it is written, it isn't.

However, for me, unless I see an errata, I will assume it works the same as in 4e.

[Voran]

I kinda think this demonstrates how the game breaks down when you take it to unreasonable levels. Consider that basically this means you'd need two of these snipers to brainshot most of the 5th edition dragons. Not an army, basically two guys, with better rifles. You make that a small squad and you should whittle down a great in under a round, if everyone fires.

[Chrome Head]

Correction: you don't like what it says. And starting with a quote from 4e doesn't really help determine what 5e RAW is.

But what it actually says is clear: the improvement cannot exceed 1.5x skill level. This is what is written and there's really only one way that these words can be interpreted. An improvement is by definition not the base thing plus the improvement... it's just the improvement. There is no ambiguity.

Now you suggest other ways to write it... ok. You also suggest what should be written. That's nice. But it really doesn't change what it says.

I agree that this might not have been what is intended. But RAW means rules as written. And what is written is clear. You're just disappointed that it is written, and disagree that it should have been written that way. That's all. Don't pretend RAW is different though.

[Chrome Head]

I kinda think this demonstrates how the game breaks down when you take it to unreasonable levels. Consider that basically this means you'd need two of these snipers to brainshot most of the 5th edition dragons. Not an army, basically two guys, with better rifles. You make that a small squad and you should whittle down a great in under a round, if everyone fires.

Interesting. A western dragon would still have 16 defense dice if it sees it coming, -1 per additional attack dodged. Then a solid 44 dice to roll for damage resistance. All in all 60 dice. Put in some edge and he's barely scratched on the first shot fired.

Wait, what did I just say? He's scratched? A starting character can scratch a dragon??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[grid.samurai]

But what it actually says is clear: the improvement cannot exceed 1.5x skill level. This is what is written and there's really only one way that these words can be interpreted. An improvement is by definition not the base thing plus the improvement... it's just the improvement. There is no ambiguity.

This is 100%. I too agree that it is written poorly and I don't believe it should work in the way that it is written, BUT the words equate to exactly this: the improvement cannot exceed 1.5x skill level. An improvement is the difference of the total NOT including the base value. Legal Word Lawyer checking out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dolanar]

despite what it should be vs what it says, putting that aside for the moment here is my character

Shade

[ Spoiler ]

A: Race Elf 8
B: Attributes 20
C: Resources 140,000
D: Magic 2
E: Skills 18/0

Attributes (20)
Body 5
Agility 6
Reaction 5
Strength 1
Charisma 3
Intuition 5
Logic 2
Willpower 4

Edge 4
Initiative 13 + 4D6
Essence 6
Magic 7

Physical Limit 5
Mental Limit 5
Social Limit 6

Skills (18/0)
Armorer 2
Assensing 2
Clubs 1
Disguise 2
Longarms(Sniper) 6((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Palming 1
Perception 3
Pistols 1
Sneaking 2
Tracking 1
Automatics 2



Qualities (-14 karma)
Exceptional Attribute (Magic)

Negative qualities (+25)

Adept Powers (7)
Improved Ability (Long arms) (1.5)
Astral Perception (1)
Enhanced Accuracy (Longarms) (.25)
Enhanced Perception (.5)
Improved Reflexes (3.5)
Improved Sense (Thermo) (.25)

Gear (140,000 spent 102,720)

Stun Baton 750
Ares Lightfire 75 1250
Ares Desert Strike 17500
-Smartgun system 200
-Silencer 1000
-Tripod 1000
Ares Alpha 2650
-Imaging Scope 300
-Laser Sight 125
Spare Clip(Sniper 14) 5+
Spare Clip(Assault 42) 5+

Transys Avalon 5000
-Biometric Reader 200
-Sub-Vocal Mic 50
-Trodes 70
-Trid Projector 200

20 Data Chips 100

Rating 4 Fake Sin 10000
Rating 4 License 800

Cap3 Contacts 600
-Image Link +25
-Smartlink +2000
-Vision Mag +250

Cap4 Glasses 400
-R4 Vision Enhancement +2000

Cap3 Earbuds 150
-R3 Audio enhancement +1500

Cap5 Headphones 250
-R3 Select Sound Filter +750
-Spatial Recognizer +1000

Autopicker R6 3000
Maglock Passkey 8000

Chameleon Suit 1700
Lined Coat 900
Actioneer 1500
-Electrochromic +500
Clothing- ???

Shin-Hyung 28500

Mirage 8500