[X] My Assistant

[Azrael]

Apologies if its been covered before or I'm having a brainfart reading the rule book, but does the old theory of not being able to use magic while viewing the world through electronic glasses (i.e. AR) still apply in 5th?

We have a new player who brought a fresh outlook to this ingrained opinion, which is that in the world of google glass, there's no reason why AR glasses couldn't be compatible with optical viewing of targets for mages.

[forgarn]

See page 281: "Step 2:Choose the target," 2nd paragraph:

Any technological visual aid that digitizes or augments the visual input for you (a camera, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.) doesn’t work—you’re looking at a generated image, not the light from the real target.

[Fiddler]

However AR is not replacing your actual vision it is an overlay, it's more like what google glass and the like do so yes you can cast with AR active. Now no you couldn't use the snipers camera gun or digital binoculars but something in normal vision range would be fine. Even in 4th edition AR was an overlay to regular vision not a replacement for it. So you have always been able to cast with AR glasses on anyone doing otherwise may be confused by the concept or wants to keep casters out of the matrix

[Sendaz]

It will depend on the glasses. If the AR is projected onto the lens so it's an overlay you can use with the mojo.

If however the Lens does not let light straight through but rather acts as a receiver on the outside and projects on the inside, then this would not be straight imaging, but again this will vary by models.

[Azrael]

Thanks people, my initial response was the same as forgarn's, my newbie player agrees with Fiddler.

Sounds like I should put it to a vote as RAW are ambiguous.

[Jack VII]

It is a bit nebulous. The only vision enhancement I recall that it specifically called out as digital is vision magnification. I would kind of assume that Low Light and Thermo fall into that category as well since I can't think of any other way that would get pulled off. I would think Flare Comp would just be non-digital high-tech polarizing lenses. Really no idea about vision enhancement.

[Jaid]

i would rule that you would have to be able to perceive the target without the assistance of the AR glasses, but that they do not inherently block casting. depending on circumstance, you may take a penalty due to distraction, of course (like having wireless enabled in a spam zone) or for other reasons (if you specifically have a large opaque "window" open in your image link, you likely won't be able to see things behind it).

[Shemhazai]

A bigger question for me is can AR help to see potential targets in the first place.

Imagine you're wearing AR goggles in low light. The goggles are optical with the ability to display certain tactical info. Normally, there's the low light visibility modifier. Now imagine seeing an AR outline of a human figure detected by low light or thermal sensors. "Ahh, there she is. I can make her out now." Would that be a way to reduce the negative visibility modifier?

I'm not talking about overlaying the human figure with an opaque (or even transparent) image, but rather an obvious outline that doesn't obscure the target at all.

Another thing I thought of would be "recognition" outlines. The outlines of friends recognized by software are green, unknown people would be yellow, and confirmed foes would be red. What this would accomplish is to prevent the accidental targeting of friends with nasty spells without needing to spend an Observe in Detail action.

If these kinds of things aren't feasible, then are there any nice benefits of AR to a character who's primary role is that of magician? If not, then would the Simsense Vertigo negative quality be a bargain for them? Would they be missing out on important benefits in their role as magician?

[Epicedion]

The AR display is just telling you where the target is, it's not actually making you see the target better. Magic requires a mystic link (usually Line of Sight), not "know where the target is" as with a gun. It's not a calculation in the brain, it's magic. You can't use AR overlays to help target magic. You can't target magic at something you can't see naturally. It's pretty simple.

[Jaid]

you could, however, use an IFF system potentially. you'd have to be running wireless of course, and as has been said, knowing where your enemies are via AR targeting doesn't help you target them with magic at all. it's natural sight* or nothing (well, ok, sight that has been paid for with essence also works, at least in SR4... can't recall offhand if that's an official rule for SR5, but it should be).

however, knowing that someone is an ally only helps you if you're throwing something like mana bolt... if you toss a manaball, it doesn't matter if you know half the people inside it are allies or not... you still hit all targets you can see that are in the area (actually, it does matter in the sense that your team is probably going to be a lot more angry knowing that you just dropped a manaball on them and it wasn't an accident...)

*in this case, "sight" includes "astral perception" even though it isn't technically sight per se).

[RHat]

The AR display is just telling you where the target is, it's not actually making you see the target better. Magic requires a mystic link (usually Line of Sight), not "know where the target is" as with a gun. It's not a calculation in the brain, it's magic. You can't use AR overlays to help target magic. You can't target magic at something you can't see naturally. It's pretty simple.

Except, of course, for indirects where you can target a point in space, and the AR display simply says "this point in space right here" - hence SR4's Spellslinger Gloves.

[Shemhazai]

The AR display is just telling you where the target is, it's not actually making you see the target better. Magic requires a mystic link (usually Line of Sight), not "know where the target is" as with a gun. It's not a calculation in the brain, it's magic. You can't use AR overlays to help target magic. You can't target magic at something you can't see naturally. It's pretty simple.

That's not exactly what I meant. Let me try an example that uses no glasses whatsoever.

You are walking behind a warehouse at night. You scan the area for an ambush and fail your Perception roll. Your dwarf teammate with thermographic vision is about 30 meters back and can see a warm human figure crouching beside a dumpster bright as day. He radios to you, "Hold up, there's someone beside the dumpster." You then peer into the shadows and can barely make out a human shape. You can't tell who it is, but it's enough to target a spell.

So what if instead you had something like an arrow that indicates "metahuman detected exactly here?" Could you then take a closer look at that spot? What if it was even better and showed you an outline that didn't block the optical view at all? Could you use that to then see that what looked like a trash bag in the dark is actually a leather jacket?

It's not an issue of "It is dim and I can not see this." It's "I did not notice that in the dim light, but now, thanks to the assistance, I can see something in the shadows that I can target." Of course this wouldn't work in full darkness or thick smoke or anything like that. It's for things that could be seen but for some reason weren't noticed.

Here's a bright light example. A security guard is making her rounds and doesn't notice a very stealthy street samurai zipping down the hallway. Her AR kicks in and points out that motion was detected with an arrow pointed right at the Sammy she missed just seconds before. Can she now see Sam now that he's been pointed out to her? If she were a magician, could she target him with a direct spell? She is wearing optical AR and he is not obscured by any sort of overlay. She's merely been alerted to his presence; she now sees what she didn't before. Can this work in places where it's harder to see, like dim light or light fog?

My bigger question: If the rules or prevailing GM opinion is that no, magicians can't benefit much at all from AR, would that make the Simsense Vertigo negative quality almost a no-brainer for them? Are there some AR benefits related to magic use that I have overlooked?

[Lobo0705]

That's not exactly what I meant. Let me try an example that uses no glasses whatsoever.

You are walking behind a warehouse at night. You scan the area for an ambush and fail your Perception roll. Your dwarf teammate with thermographic vision is about 30 meters back and can see a warm human figure crouching beside a dumpster bright as day. He radios to you, "Hold up, there's someone beside the dumpster." You then peer into the shadows and can barely make out a human shape. You can't tell who it is, but it's enough to target a spell.

So what if instead you had something like an arrow that indicates "metahuman detected exactly here?" Could you then take a closer look at that spot? What if it was even better and showed you an outline that didn't block the optical view at all? Could you use that to then see that what looked like a trash bag in the dark is actually a leather jacket?

It's not an issue of "It is dim and I can not see this." It's "I did not notice that in the dim light, but now, thanks to the assistance, I can see something in the shadows that I can target." Of course this wouldn't work in full darkness or thick smoke or anything like that. It's for things that could be seen but for some reason weren't noticed.

You would still need to make a Perception test so that YOU could see the target. You could get a positive modifier on the die roll, since you've gotten help from your friend, but you still need to be able to have seen the target yourself.

Here's a bright light example. A security guard is making her rounds and doesn't notice a very stealthy street samurai zipping down the hallway. Her AR kicks in and points out that motion was detected with an arrow pointed right at the Sammy she missed just seconds before. Can she now see Sam now that he's been pointed out to her? If she were a magician, could she target him with a direct spell? She is wearing optical AR and he is not obscured by any sort of overlay. She's merely been alerted to his presence; she now sees what she didn't before. Can this work in places where it's harder to see, like dim light or light fog?

Same thing - assuming there is a motion detector that spotted the Samurai, and it sent an alert to the guard, the guard would still need to make a Perception check to spot the Samurai. It is not enough to know that someone is there, they have to see them themselves.

My bigger question: If the rules or prevailing GM opinion is that no, magicians can't benefit much at all from AR, would that make the Simsense Vertigo negative quality almost a no-brainer for them? Are there some AR benefits related to magic use that I have overlooked?

I wouldn't say it is a no brainer, in that AR allows you other benefits as well - and it is a big roleplaying issue if nothing else. Remember that the standard is that everyone is looking at things through AR all the time - that is the "norm" for the way metahumans interact with the world in 2075. You would be missing out on a wealth of information that everyone else would see, OR be seeing the information and dealing with a -2 dice penalty. No, AR doesn't give benefits to casting spells, but that isn't the only thing a mage/shaman would be using it for.

[shonen_mask]

Are there even AR eyewear in SR5?

I've only found the imagelink description.

[Jaid]

Are there even AR eyewear in SR5?

I've only found the imagelink description.

yes. page 443.

as to spotting something that's pointed out to you, i'd say:

(page 135): "you can
call for a Perception Test by taking an Observe in Detail
Simple Action to get a handle on what’s going down
around you."

depending on circumstances, the GM may feel it appropriate to grant a teamwork test from an ally to assist, but that should also require an action on their part.

it probably also constitutes making a second attempt at something, which is normally done at -2, but you're getting help in where to look specifically, so... i could see allowing it the second time at no penalty.

[DMiller]

That's not exactly what I meant. Let me try an example that uses no glasses whatsoever.

You are walking behind a warehouse at night. You scan the area for an ambush and fail your Perception roll. Your dwarf teammate with thermographic vision is about 30 meters back and can see a warm human figure crouching beside a dumpster bright as day. He radios to you, "Hold up, there's someone beside the dumpster." You then peer into the shadows and can barely make out a human shape. You can't tell who it is, but it's enough to target a spell.

Here you have assumed that the Mage has succeeded in a perception test (as he now sees something he didn't see before). It this point since he has seen the target he can target them, but with the Dice Pool penalty for Low-Light conditions.

So what if instead you had something like an arrow that indicates "metahuman detected exactly here?" Could you then take a closer look at that spot? What if it was even better and showed you an outline that didn't block the optical view at all? Could you use that to then see that what looked like a trash bag in the dark is actually a leather jacket?

Yes, this is what should happen. The Mage should make a second Perception Test, with the bonus to his pool for looking specifically for something (I believe it is +3). I personally do not think the Mage should receive the "trying again" penalty as his first (failed) perception test was a general perception, and this one is a specific test, but YMMV.

It's not an issue of "It is dim and I can not see this." It's "I did not notice that in the dim light, but now, thanks to the assistance, I can see something in the shadows that I can target." Of course this wouldn't work in full darkness or thick smoke or anything like that. It's for things that could be seen but for some reason weren't noticed.

But it is dim, which is probably why you didn't notice the guy the first time. The dim light conditions will still affect your ability to target that person with a spell, and you should take that penalty into account when you go to cast.

Here's a bright light example. A security guard is making her rounds and doesn't notice a very stealthy street samurai zipping down the hallway. Her AR kicks in and points out that motion was detected with an arrow pointed right at the Sammy she missed just seconds before. Can she now see Sam now that he's been pointed out to her? If she were a magician, could she target him with a direct spell? She is wearing optical AR and he is not obscured by any sort of overlay. She's merely been alerted to his presence; she now sees what she didn't before. Can this work in places where it's harder to see, like dim light or light fog?

Again the guard needs to make another perception test, this time with the bonus for looking for something specific, and I again would not apply the trying again penality as this is actually a new test, the failed test was a general perception test to see if "anything" was wrong.

My bigger question: If the rules or prevailing GM opinion is that no, magicians can't benefit much at all from AR, would that make the Simsense Vertigo negative quality almost a no-brainer for them? Are there some AR benefits related to magic use that I have overlooked?

As stated by others there are a lot of other benefits to AR than simply casting spells or not. Simsense Vertigo is honestly as bad a choice for almost anyone as Allergy: Pollution. Everyone should be accessing AR often. Someone who refused to use AR at all might not even be able to eat in any normal restaurants or diners (top end places probably still have printed menus) because everything is handled by AR, you don't have a waiter/waitress, you have a server.

[KarmaInferno]

Now let's get into the rules argument mess of having an IFF system place black opaque AR squares over your teammates so you can't see them and therefore won't hit them with some AOE spells.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)



-k

[DMiller]

Now let's get into the rules argument mess of having an IFF system place black opaque AR squares over your teammates so you can't see them and therefore won't hit them with some AOE spells.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)



-k

Naw, let's not get into that can of worms. I say if you have a player trying this trick, you as the GM have every right to smack that player with whatever medium you have your book stored (hoping for a full-sized PC here). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

Naw, let's not get into that can of worms. I say if you have a player trying this trick, you as the GM have every right to smack that player with whatever medium you have your book stored (hoping for a full-sized PC here). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And I'd say the players (plural and multiple) have every right to smack the GM back with whatever medium they have their books stored. (hoping for multiple full size PCs, now wouldn't that be fun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) you know they really need a vepc smilie)

[Jaid]

Now let's get into the rules argument mess of having an IFF system place black opaque AR squares over your teammates so you can't see them and therefore won't hit them with some AOE spells.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)



-k

such a system would almost definitely have to be wireless. i mean, you could *theoretically* use a wired connection, but... well, there should be some fairly noticeable inherent drawbacks to that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

in any event, wireless means a lot of problems. first off, if they're lobbing AOE spells, odds are good that the alarms are going. you can expect at least one, quite possibly two or more deckers are on their way, and will be there within a few combat turns of the alarm going off, in any place with decent security.

and the second they figure out your system, it's time to broadcast some fake IFF symbols for everyone. possibly even hack into your systems and switch around who gets those fancy black squares at just the right time. and then brick everything they can get their hands on.

in short, such a system is not without it's drawbacks... it will be viable against some opponents, but against others it can and most likely will be turned against you.

[grid.samurai]

I think it gets down to this: can the mage see their target optically, regardless of whether or not they are aided by technology to point out where they are? If the answer is yes, any spell may be cast. If the answer is no, indirect can be cast.

[Azrael]

For the purposes of our game, we decided to go with if the mage is using AR and has a reasonable number of things going on (not just, for example, having the time in the corner of his vision), then we're going to apply the -2 penalty to other things while in using AR rule.

Or you just flip the sunnies on top of you head while the fireballs fly and then do your best Horatio from CSI: Miami when things calm down.

[Dolanar]

"Look like their plans went up...*shades* in flames"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And I'd say the players (plural and multiple) have every right to smack the GM back with whatever medium they have their books stored. (hoping for multiple full size PCs, now wouldn't that be fun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) you know they really need a vepc smilie)

Especially since it is RAW in SR4A. Assuming you roll that way, anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jack VII]

"Look like their plans went up...*shades* in flames"

I now have the overwhelming desire to build a red-headed elf mage with a negative Charisma, negative points in the Acting SG, and Distinctive Style (Fucked Up Diction).

We won't get fooled again!